Discussion:
Alexi Grewal: worst teammate ever
(too old to reply)
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-08 23:58:09 UTC
Permalink
In his own, awesome words:

http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-olympics-in-la

" I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"

"Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
pocket was to rely on the unreliable."

"Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don’t have
any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."

...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
saw the race.

I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.

There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
spitting on the camera man.

I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
drmofe
2010-12-09 00:12:05 UTC
Permalink
"That's bike racing"
H. Fred Kveck
2010-12-09 01:10:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-olympics-in
-la
" I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"
"Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
pocket was to rely on the unreliable."
"Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don¹t have
any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."
...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
saw the race.
I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.
There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
spitting on the camera man.
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
He did what all top level racers (particularly motorcycle racers) know to do: The
person you most have to beat is your team mate. His explanations of how he did it was
pretty fascinating - the guy did not miss a single thing.
Fredmaster of Brainerd
2010-12-09 01:34:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.
   He did what all top level racers (particularly motorcycle racers) know to do: The
person you most have to beat is your team mate. His explanations of how he did it was
pretty fascinating - the guy did not miss a single thing.
Damn.
That's intense.
You know it's good when Scottsmack posts up and
just says "wow."

Fredmaster Ben
--D-y
2010-12-09 04:05:53 UTC
Permalink
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-ol...
-la
" I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"
"Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
filed away.  Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
hilly two hundred kilometer race.  One feed zone per lap on a
downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
pocket was to rely on the unreliable."
"Two laps to go Davis asks me for food.  I lied, said I don t have
any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."
...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
saw the race.
I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.
There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
spitting on the camera man.
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
   He did what all top level racers (particularly motorcycle racers) know to do: The
person you most have to beat is your team mate. His explanations of how he did it was
pretty fascinating - the guy did not miss a single thing.
Steve Tilford has a comment on time and distance on his blog,
recently.

Addressing the title line: third and fourth finishers, Dag-Otto
Lauritzen and Morten Saether, were teammates riding for Norway.
Morten dragged Dag-Otto to the line and got outsprinted for the last
medal. Dag-Otto went on to a pro contract; Morten rode the Tour of
Texas (amateur) in '86 and I think subsequently went back to school
and got a degree.

The moral of the story: "That's bike racing!".
--D-y
A. Dumas
2010-12-09 10:05:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by --D-y
Addressing the title line: third and fourth finishers, Dag-Otto
Lauritzen and Morten Saether, were teammates riding for Norway.
Morten dragged Dag-Otto to the line and got outsprinted for the last
medal. Dag-Otto went on to a pro contract; Morten rode the Tour of
Texas (amateur) in '86 and I think subsequently went back to school
and got a degree.
I know who really won.
--D-y
2010-12-09 15:12:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Dumas
Post by --D-y
Addressing the title line: third and fourth finishers, Dag-Otto
Lauritzen and Morten Saether, were teammates riding for Norway.
Morten dragged Dag-Otto to the line and got outsprinted for the last
medal. Dag-Otto went on to a pro contract; Morten rode the Tour of
Texas (amateur) in '86 and I think subsequently went back to school
and got a degree.
I know who really won.
The guy with the most toys at the end?
--D-y
drmofe
2010-12-09 11:47:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by --D-y
Addressing the title line: third and fourth finishers, Dag-Otto
Lauritzen and Morten Saether, were teammates riding for Norway.
Morten dragged Dag-Otto to the line and got outsprinted for the last
medal. Dag-Otto went on to a pro contract; Morten rode the Tour of
Dag-Otto Lauritzen was also somewhat famous in Norway for dragging one
L. Armstrong up to the Indurain-driven break on the last lap of World
Champs, Oslo 1993.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
2010-12-09 02:07:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -

I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.

It's better to work with or for your teamates.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
DirtRoadie
2010-12-09 02:19:41 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 8, 7:07 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -
I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.
It's better to work with or for your teamates.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass,
Which Olympics were those in?
DR
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
2010-12-09 02:58:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by DirtRoadie
On Dec 8, 7:07 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -
I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.
It's better to work with or for your teamates.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass,
Which Olympics were those in?
Dumbass -

The Special Olympics.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
DirtRoadie
2010-12-09 03:04:16 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 8, 7:58 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by DirtRoadie
On Dec 8, 7:07 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -
I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.
It's better to work with or for your teamates.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass,
Which Olympics were those in?
Dumbass -
The Special Olympics.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
But you can at least take consolation that, just by competing,
EVERYBODY wins in the Special Olympics.
DR
Fred Flintstein
2010-12-09 14:23:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -
I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.
It's better to work with or for your teamates.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
If you read between the lines in what Alexi writes in the
comments it isn't obvious that he disagrees with you.

"One can use your brain, for good or for things that are
not so good. Imagine my brain being used to support Davis
and Ron. A little bit different perspective and I could
have easily controlled that entire race and brought Ron
and Davis to the finish on an armchair.

Think perhaps of how that would have affected my lifetime
goal of being a Tour de France rider. One can never go
back, but we can change how we go forward."

Fred Flintstein
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
2010-12-09 14:55:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Flintstein
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -
I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.
It's better to work with or for your teamates.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
If you read between the lines in what Alexi writes in the
comments it isn't obvious that he disagrees with you.
"One can use your brain, for good or for things that are
not so good. Imagine my brain being used to support Davis
and Ron. A little bit different perspective and I could
have easily controlled that entire race and brought Ron
and Davis to the finish on an armchair.
Think perhaps of how that would have affected my lifetime
goal of being a Tour de France rider. One can never go
back, but we can change how we go forward."
Dumbass -

I didn't even read the article. That is some good introspection.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Plano Dude
2010-12-09 14:58:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Flintstein
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -
I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.
It's better to work with or for your teamates.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
If you read between the lines in what Alexi writes in the
comments it isn't obvious that he disagrees with you.
"One can use your brain, for good or for things that are
not so good. Imagine my brain being used to support Davis
and Ron. A little bit different perspective and I could
have easily controlled that entire race and brought Ron
and Davis to the finish on an armchair.
Think perhaps of how that would have affected my lifetime
goal of being a Tour de France rider. One can never go
back, but we can change how we go forward."
Fred Flintstein
Good talk. I see similarities in attitudes between the young Grewal
and young Armstrong. Speaking of changing how we go forward, Armstrong
figured it out but it doesn't appear that Grewal did.
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-10 20:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Dumbass -
I was too greedy (regarding teamwork) in two races and I regret it
both times. It didn't work out.
It's better to work with or for your teamates.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
The purpose of teammates is to get chicks, get water bottles, and to
keep their mouth shut when the doping authorities come knockin.' Well,
at least according to Lance, that is.

Magilla
William R. Mattil
2010-12-09 02:09:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-olympics-in-la
Good read. Thanks for posting the link.


Regards

Bill
--
William R. Mattil

http://www.celestial-images.com
Plano Dude
2010-12-09 02:45:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by William R. Mattil
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-ol...
Good read. Thanks for posting the link.
Regards
Bill
--
William R. Mattil
http://www.celestial-images.com
Hindsight is 20/20. This smacks of jealousy for the golden boys of US
cycling at the time - the 7-Eleven team.

Interestingly, there are similarities to the 1982 pro road race in
Goodwood England

http://velonews.competitor.com/2005/05/news/inside-cycling-with-john-wilcockson-the-controversial-1982-worlds_8043
Anton Berlin
2010-12-09 13:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.

But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.

Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.

(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-10 02:33:51 UTC
Permalink
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.

But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.

The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
Anton Berlin
2010-12-10 13:56:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Anton Berlin
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.
But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.
The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
Exactly ! How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with? Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?

This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s. The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity) and sent to international events.

Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.

Fuck Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.

I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.

From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.

That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.

If you or even he wants to piss on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.

I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.

The race is with ourselves. The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.

And independent fuckers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.

I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and "team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
cunts out there.

So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-10 15:09:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.
But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.
The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
Exactly !  How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with?  Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?
There's merit to this.
This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s.  The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity)  and sent to international events.
I'm just boggling here at the idea that anyone cares about 100k TTTs
outside of England.
Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.
Fuck Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.
I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.
Maybe. On the day, he strived to make them work each other, while he
sat on breaks until Bauer finally started stretching him. That wasn't
the bad-teammate part, that was pretty much where he should have been.
From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.
I think he's trying to get something to do. Reading it, you realize
he's got no money, can hardly find work, and they didn't even bring
the big new Sponsored Race to his preferred town. None of that is a
knock on Grewal, but I will use it as a whip for my favorite
hobbyhorse: pro bike racing is a stupid career.
That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.
I'm going to anonymously quote a friend of mine: "When Grewal made his
final move and pipped Bauer at the finish, it was the closest I've
ever come to putting something through a TV Elvis-style."

Let's just say that Canada was not inspired.
If you or even he wants to piss on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.
Let's be clear: bike racing isn't real. Grewal didn't steal penicillin
from children; he "stole" a gold medal from a "teammate" who went on
to live a happy life (and great pro career) regardless. Indeed, I'll
go so far as to suggest that had Grewal not medaled, he would have
been out of cycling much sooner, and likely ended up as a carpenter
much earlier, and likely have sufficiently more practice and so much
longer of a client list that today he wouldn't have to be content with
being a month ahead on the rent and scavenging insoles among the
collection of his dead friend.

We're agreeing, really, about all of this: the team structure at these
events is notoriously loose, to the point that "Ted" publishes an
annual list of pro teammates at the Worlds, since that is noteworthy
information when watching how the race develops.
I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.
The race is with ourselves.  The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.
I'm more simplistic than that: I think the meaning of Grewal's story
is that bike racing is fascinating, and the race doesn't always go to
the swift, nor the battle to the strong (but that's the way to
bet...).
So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.
1) Yay! I get the gold medal in Usenet Arguing! I feel like Loretta
Claiborne!

2) My subject line was a bit facetious (or at least putting the most
sensationalist light on Grewal's cool story), but if there was one
"worst teammate" moment that stood out, it was him withholding food
from Phinney at the end. He didn't have to hand it over, and he
understood the effect, but in terms of sportsmanship, we've seen
rivals share food and drink before. And note that Grewal admits to
having a secret feed zone just for himself, too. He made a (post-hoc
justifiable) decision to profoundly screw Phinney in that moment,
though Phinney unwittingly handed Grewal the screwdriver when he put
on a skinsuit.

It's just a great story, really.
Anton Berlin
2010-12-10 19:16:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
It's just a great story, really.
whatever way it evolves - it's a great story
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
2010-12-10 20:24:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Berlin
Post by Ryan Cousineau
It's just a great story, really.
whatever way it evolves - it's a great story
Dumbass -

I finally read it.

It is very, very well written, perhaps the best first person narrative
of a race I've ever laid eyes on.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-10 20:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Berlin
Fuck Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.
I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.
From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.
That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.
If you or even he wants to piss on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.
I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.
The race is with ourselves. The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.
And independent fuckers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.
I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and "team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
cunts out there.
So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.
Yeah, I guess Grewal isn't that bad after all. I especially like the fact that he lied to Phinney, and that Phinney lost the race.

"Greg...look what Zanoli did to me...Greg...GREG!!"

As for all teammates being cunts....that's exactly what teammates are. Ask Lance what he thinks of his former teammate Fraud. Ask Chuck
Fucking Coyle too, if you believe that chump's story.

Ask Danny Pate what he thinks of Tom Danielson banging his wife.


Magilla
yirgster
2010-12-14 07:24:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Anton Berlin
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.
But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.
The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
Exactly !  How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with?  Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?
This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s.  The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity)  and sent to international events.
Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.
Fuck Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.
I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.
From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.
That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.
If you or even he wants to piss on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.
I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.
The race is with ourselves.  The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.
And independent fuckers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton  make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.
I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and  "team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
cunts out there.
So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.
Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
Borysewicz' book, Bicycle Road Racing:

- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do. There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...

- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory. After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros. That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-14 08:47:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by yirgster
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Anton Berlin
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.
But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.
The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
Exactly !  How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with?  Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?
This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s.  The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity)  and sent to international events.
Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.
Fuck Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.
I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.
From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.
That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.
If you or even he wants to piss on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.
I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.
The race is with ourselves.  The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.
And independent fuckers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton  make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.
I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and  "team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
cunts out there.
So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.
Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do.  There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...
- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory.  After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros.  That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."
Love it. This will inspire me to new heights of bad behavior in the
Cat 4 peloton.
Carl Sundquist
2010-12-15 05:31:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by yirgster
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Anton Berlin
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.
But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.
The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
Exactly !  How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with?  Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?
This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s.  The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity)  and sent to international events.
Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.
Fuck Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.
I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.
From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.
That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.
If you or even he wants to piss on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.
I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.
The race is with ourselves.  The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.
And independent fuckers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton  make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.
I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and  "team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
cunts out there.
So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.
Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do.  There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...
- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory.  After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros.  That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."
What this shows is that Grewal never really viewed Phinney, Kiefel,
and probably Rogers as teammates. He barely made it to the start line
in time (in a manner of speaking) due to the Ma-Huang issue. Also, the
other three were on higher profile, better funded teams. The TTT squad
were also comprised completely of Slurpees and Raleighs. Grewal was an
outside man.

On the other hand, Grewal has a tremendous respect for Len Pettyjohn,
as does anyone who has ever known Len. But in the Olympics, like
Grewal, Len didn't owe anything to anyone. So in races with
Pettyjohn's American Savings/Dia Compe/Denver Spoke team, Grewal had
loyalty.
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-15 08:08:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Carl Sundquist
Post by yirgster
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Anton Berlin
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.
But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.
The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
Exactly !  How is anyone (Alexi especially) expected to have
allegiance to guys he barely rode with?  Just because they all have
the same super gay stars and stripes jersey on?
This is the exact same problem that haunted the US 100k teams for the
80s and 90s.  The ten speed drive boys - working as friends that rode
together often - typically went 4-8 minutes faster than the ad hoc
teams the coaches threw together again and again (the definition of
insanity)  and sent to international events.
Alexi had one allegiance that day and that was to work for himself.
Anyone that's won eventually second guesses (often much later in
life ) as much as the guys that got second or sixteenth.
Fuck Davis Phinney - if he didn't have the sense to bring enough food
and drink or try to gain advantage be wearing a skinsuit with only 1
pocket then he deserves the place he got.
I'll venture this - in a three up sprint with Phinney, Bauer and
Grewal - Grewal still could win because he would be smart enough to
take advantage of those 2 marking each other and would enter the end
zone untouched.
From reading his blogs and news stories it's clear Alexi (as a human)
is going through a stage where he's trying to rationalize his life,
justify or pardon his past and have it all make sense.
That day in 1984 he inspired 10s of thousands to ride and put in the
miles (me included) and that vision kept me riding many times for many
years.
If you or even he wants to piss on that candy now - well OK that's
everyone's right - but it doesn't change the fact that for years his
ride inspired every loner, every misfit and every one that wanted to
do something for themselves and prove to the world and lastly the
internal doubts we all have that they have value and can do something
incredible.
I don't know him, never raced against him but Alexi Grewal is the
greatest "teammate" ever because at 23 he got it right.
The race is with ourselves.  The things we do only mark our souls. And
no one really keeps our score but ourselves.
And independent fuckers like Henry Chang, Magilla, Alexi and maybe
Anton  make this world 100x better than a million ass grabbing glad
handing yes-men team players.
I am in the business world and I can tell you for a fact that the
"teammates" and  "team players" are the most detestable untrustworthy
cunts out there.
So in the end - maybe your subject line isn't so bad - calling someone
like Alexi "the worst teammate ever" is about the best damn compliment
one can make.
Here's an example of Grewal doing the good as a teammate. From
- Sometimes a talented rider with enough determination can block even
good riders who know exactly what he's trying to do.  There was an
excellent example of this in the final stage of the 1983 Coors
Classic. Dale Stetina, in third place on general classification, got
into an early break with wore than a dozen very powerful East
Europeans and Americans...
- Stetina was in position to move into first place if he could gain
4:56 on the race leader, who had missed the echelon along with a
number of other good riders, including Stetina's teammate, Alexi
Grewal. Using the blocking tactics I've just described, Grewal worked
against the chase's progress for almost 150 km and Stetina got more
than enough time for the victory.  After the race, Grewal told Velo-
news what he had to endure at the front of the chase. "I was really
getting beat up. Guys were elbowing me and hitting me all the time,
especially the Swiss pros.  That made me mad and then I really started
getting into it. After a while they sort of gave in and were letting
me move in anywhere I wanted."
What this shows is that Grewal never really viewed Phinney, Kiefel,
and probably Rogers as teammates. He barely made it to the start line
in time (in a manner of speaking) due to the Ma-Huang issue. Also, the
other three were on higher profile, better funded teams. The TTT squad
were also comprised completely of Slurpees and Raleighs. Grewal was an
outside man.
On the other hand, Grewal has a tremendous respect for Len Pettyjohn,
as does anyone who has ever known Len. But in the Olympics, like
Grewal, Len didn't owe anything to anyone. So in races with
Pettyjohn's American Savings/Dia Compe/Denver Spoke team, Grewal had
loyalty.
Dear Carl, this was an insightful and fascinating analysis of bike
racing informed by first-hand experiences. Why did you post it in rbr?
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-10 20:18:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz.  If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
I said "worst teammate," not "worst racer." As you note, Grewal
achieved cycling greatness that day.
But he took an awful risk. He relied on being able to outsprint Bauer
heads-up, but he got away with it. As he notes, the good-teammate plan
would have meant delivering Kiefel and Phinney to the finish, with
extremely good odds for the USA.
The meta-problem at the Olympics and Worlds is that national "teams"
are largely a crock, featuring minimal functional loyalties (as
opposed to pro teams, where the personal and financial ties are
usually stronger). Even club teams are more of a real team.
That's why USA Cycling gets their ass kicked every year at worlds...they
continue to perpetuate the myth that "Team USA" works together. No, you
dumb fuck Jim Miller, the Italians and Spaniards work together.

Magilla
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-10 20:15:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Berlin
Sorry Ryan but this subject line makes you look like a putz. If a guy
holds support from a teammate and then drops out or gets 18th then
he's a selfish fucking cunt and deserves the worst.
But if a guy does these things believing he can win and then does it -
that makes him a god.
Because anyone that's got to that level will tell you when the race
starts - it's every man for himself.
(of course this is different in stage racing but one day races you're
on your own)
Correct, Phinney should have brought his own fucking lunch. Phinney
reminds me of one of those faggots on group rides who's always asking for
spare tubes and a pump when they flat. I can't tell you have many
fuckhole riders I know whose way of fixing a flat is to call their
girlfriend to pick them up.


Magilla
jojo
2010-12-10 20:36:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by MagillaGorilla
I can't tell you have many
fuckhole riders I know whose way of fixing a flat is to call their
girlfriend to pick them up.
There's another way...????
Steven Bornfeld
2010-12-09 17:07:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-olympics-in-la
" I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"
"Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
pocket was to rely on the unreliable."
"Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don’t have
any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."
...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
saw the race.
I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.
There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
spitting on the camera man.
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
Awesome is right!

Steve
--
Mark & Steven Bornfeld DDS
http://www.dentaltwins.com
Brooklyn, NY
718-258-5001
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-10 16:07:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-olympics-in-la
" I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"
"Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
pocket was to rely on the unreliable."
"Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don’t have
any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."
The 1984 Olympics was not only all-amateur, but a boycotted Games. Winning it was
meaningless. After Grewal won his gold medal he got all Bill Johnson about it.
That explains why he believes in God and thinks he's going to race Quiznos. Both
are delusions.

Although I am grateful he beat Phinney because had he won the gold medal him and
Connie would be wearing those meaningless medallions to sleep every night and still
talking about them everytime someone comes to interview them about their son.

Okay, I'm ready for you, Carl.

Magilla
Marco
2010-12-10 21:47:30 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 8, 3:58 pm, Ryan Cousineau <***@gmail.com> wrote:
<snip>
Post by Ryan Cousineau
...and much more, very entertaining stuff
<snip>

Agree... this Alexi stuff is entertaining and awesome. Particularly so
for me and the generation of riders who were around when he started.
Indulge me a few brief Alexi stories with a common theme...

1. Berkeley Hills RR, late 1970's, junior race to earn points (10
deep) to go to world championship trials: Two riders off the front,
Alexi and his teammate working their asses off to pull them back, most
all the rest of us sitting on waiting to sprint for 3rd. The two stay
away. I got 2nd in the sprint, and thus 4th in the race. Alexi and his
teammate didn't place. My friends and I walk by Alexi afterward, and
he's livid and spitting and cussing at us, "You fukkin wheelsuckers,
you race like losers, blah, blah, blah..."

2. Team Time Trial at junior worlds team trials in Colorado Springs
that same year: Groups of four were chosen to ride together based on
the staff's assessment of similar abilities. I don't remember the
following due to oxygen deprivation most likely, but one of my
teammates that day (Sterling McBride) recalls it clearly. In the
latter half of the race, the four of us were plugging away into the
wind when out of nowhere, Alexi comes blowing by us ALL BY HIMSELF!!!
He had dropped his teammates in a TTT because he could go faster
alone! Who knows, maybe he attacked them?!?!

3. The following year at some OTC camp: Alexi pees on a guy's bike who
he doesn't respect ...but then gets the shit beaten out of him by said
bike's owner.

My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
Anton Berlin
2010-12-10 22:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marco
Agree... this Alexi stuff is entertaining and awesome. Particularly so
for me and the generation of riders who were around when he started.
Indulge me a few brief Alexi stories with a common theme...
1. Berkeley Hills RR, late 1970's, junior race to earn points (10
deep) to go to world championship trials: Two riders off the front,
Alexi and his teammate working their asses off to pull them back, most
all the rest of us sitting on waiting to sprint for 3rd. The two stay
away. I got 2nd in the sprint, and thus 4th in the race. Alexi and his
teammate didn't place. My friends and I walk by Alexi afterward, and
he's livid and spitting and cussing at us, "You fukkin wheelsuckers,
you race like losers, blah, blah, blah..."
2. Team Time Trial at junior worlds team trials in Colorado Springs
that same year: Groups of four were chosen to ride together based on
the staff's assessment of similar abilities. I don't remember the
following due to oxygen deprivation most likely, but one of my
teammates that day (Sterling McBride) recalls it clearly. In the
latter half of the race, the four of us were plugging away into the
wind when out of nowhere, Alexi comes blowing by us ALL BY HIMSELF!!!
He had dropped his teammates in a TTT because he could go faster
alone! Who knows, maybe he attacked them?!?!
3. The following year at some OTC camp: Alexi pees on a guy's bike who
he doesn't respect ...but then gets the shit beaten out of him by said
bike's owner.
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
Great stories -This is why people love Alexi Grewal - he's got the
piss that cowards and team players dream they had.

Alexi probably doesn't even remember these things - just another day
at the office for him.
--D-y
2010-12-11 14:51:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anton Berlin
Post by Marco
Agree... this Alexi stuff is entertaining and awesome. Particularly so
for me and the generation of riders who were around when he started.
Indulge me a few brief Alexi stories with a common theme...
1. Berkeley Hills RR, late 1970's, junior race to earn points (10
deep) to go to world championship trials: Two riders off the front,
Alexi and his teammate working their asses off to pull them back, most
all the rest of us sitting on waiting to sprint for 3rd. The two stay
away. I got 2nd in the sprint, and thus 4th in the race. Alexi and his
teammate didn't place. My friends and I walk by Alexi afterward, and
he's livid and spitting and cussing at us, "You fukkin wheelsuckers,
you race like losers, blah, blah, blah..."
2. Team Time Trial at junior worlds team trials in Colorado Springs
that same year: Groups of four were chosen to ride together based on
the staff's assessment of similar abilities. I don't remember the
following due to oxygen deprivation most likely, but one of my
teammates that day (Sterling McBride) recalls it clearly. In the
latter half of the race, the four of us were plugging away into the
wind when out of nowhere, Alexi comes blowing by us ALL BY HIMSELF!!!
He had dropped his teammates in a TTT because he could go faster
alone! Who knows, maybe he attacked them?!?!
3. The following year at some OTC camp: Alexi pees on a guy's bike who
he doesn't respect ...but then gets the shit beaten out of him by said
bike's owner.
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
Great stories -This is why people love Alexi Grewal - he's got the
piss that cowards and team players dream they had.
Alexi probably doesn't even remember these things - just another day
at the office for him.
I'm not an Alexi fan so maybe someone else should tell the story of
how Alexi lost the GC for the Tour of Texas at the Zilker Park crit.
--D-y
Amit Ghosh
2010-12-11 16:51:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Marco
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
dumbass,

some riders can be very good but they can't be a good pro because they
are injury prone or they get sick too often, a disability if you will.
in grewal's case it was his emotions.

he sabotaged what could've been a long pro career. a guy like andreu
did not have the same ability but he was a solid pro for over a decade
not to mention some of the others that he beat at the olympics.

these emotional type guys (decanio is another) are actually
narcissists. guys that succeed long term are always more level
headed.
Plano Dude
2010-12-11 17:33:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by Marco
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
dumbass,
some riders can be very good but they can't be a good pro because they
are injury prone or they get sick too often, a disability if you will.
in grewal's case it was his emotions.
he sabotaged what could've been a long pro career. a guy like andreu
did not have the same ability but he was a solid pro for over a decade
not to mention some of the others that he beat at the olympics.
these emotional type guys (decanio is another) are actually
narcissists. guys that succeed long term are always more level
headed.
+1
Plano Dude
2010-12-11 19:54:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by Marco
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
dumbass,
some riders can be very good but they can't be a good pro because they
are injury prone or they get sick too often, a disability if you will.
in grewal's case it was his emotions.
he sabotaged what could've been a long pro career. a guy like andreu
did not have the same ability but he was a solid pro for over a decade
not to mention some of the others that he beat at the olympics.
these emotional type guys (decanio is another) are actually
narcissists. guys that succeed long term are always more level
headed.
+1
Some serious cumguzzlers on this thread. All they're missing is a
silicone wristband.
Anton Berlin
2010-12-11 20:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Plano Dude
Some serious cumguzzlers on this thread. All they're missing is a
silicone wristband.
Everyone recognizes that Plano Douche has had more testicles lodged in
his throat than Liz Hatch fantasizes about and masturbates to.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
2010-12-12 03:28:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by Marco
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
dumbass,
some riders can be very good but they can't be a good pro because they
are injury prone or they get sick too often, a disability if you will.
in grewal's case it was his emotions.
he sabotaged what could've been a long pro career. a guy like andreu
did not have the same ability but he was a solid pro for over a decade
not to mention some of the others that he beat at the olympics.
these emotional type guys (decanio is another) are actually
narcissists. guys that succeed long term are always more level
headed.
Dumbass -

The biggest problem was no one wanted him on their team. I guess you
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
A. Dumas
2010-12-12 12:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.
Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.
Amit Ghosh
2010-12-12 19:13:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.
Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.
dumbass,

i was referring to emotional roller coaster guys. guys who flip put
over a perceived slight or have a bad day on the bike and pack up and
go home or stop training for the rest of the season. these are the
same guys that get overly euphoric when they win. it goes hand in
hand.

grewal i think did mellow out and raced for a long time on domestic
teams (mostly coorslight) but even then he was always inconsistent.
i'm not sure if it was a matter of being focused or physical frailty.
Plano Dude
2010-12-12 21:50:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.
Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.
dumbass,
i was referring to emotional roller coaster guys. guys who flip put
over a perceived slight or have a bad day on the bike and pack up and
go home or stop training for the rest of the season. these are the
same guys that get overly euphoric when they win. it goes hand in
hand.
grewal i think did mellow out and raced for a long time on domestic
teams (mostly coorslight) but even then he was always inconsistent.
i'm not sure if it was a matter of being focused or physical frailty.
It wasn't physical frailty til he flipped his jeep.

With the exception of the Olympics, his palmares are very Danielson-
esque
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=9420
http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=2587
Amit Ghosh
2010-12-12 22:24:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Plano Dude
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.
Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.
dumbass,
i was referring to emotional roller coaster guys. guys who flip put
over a perceived slight or have a bad day on the bike and pack up and
go home or stop training for the rest of the season. these are the
same guys that get overly euphoric when they win. it goes hand in
hand.
grewal i think did mellow out and raced for a long time on domestic
teams (mostly coorslight) but even then he was always inconsistent.
i'm not sure if it was a matter of being focused or physical frailty.
It wasn't physical frailty til he flipped his jeep.
With the exception of the Olympics, his palmares are very Danielson-
esquehttp://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=9420http://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=2587
dumbass,

danielson has had a lot better career than grewal.

he will probably not be the GC contender some people imagined but he
has been racing as a euro pro for 6 yrs or so and has a few euro
results.

grewal had like three half-seasons.
Plano Dude
2010-12-12 22:36:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by Plano Dude
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.
Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.
dumbass,
i was referring to emotional roller coaster guys. guys who flip put
over a perceived slight or have a bad day on the bike and pack up and
go home or stop training for the rest of the season. these are the
same guys that get overly euphoric when they win. it goes hand in
hand.
grewal i think did mellow out and raced for a long time on domestic
teams (mostly coorslight) but even then he was always inconsistent.
i'm not sure if it was a matter of being focused or physical frailty.
It wasn't physical frailty til he flipped his jeep.
With the exception of the Olympics, his palmares are very Danielson-
esquehttp://www.cyclingarchives.com/coureurfiche.php?coureurid=9420http://...
dumbass,
danielson has had a lot better career than grewal.
he will probably not be the GC contender some people imagined but he
has been racing as a euro pro for 6 yrs or so and has a few euro
results.
grewal had like three half-seasons.
Ok, I expressed myself badly. I should have said that both have left a
lot to be desired for their respective expectations.
Amit Ghosh
2010-12-12 22:53:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Plano Dude
Ok, I expressed myself badly. I should have said that both have left a
lot to be desired for their respective expectations.
dumbass,

there's lots of examples of that - riders that steamroll the
competition at a lower level but are "average" at the euro pro level.
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-14 09:08:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.
Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.
Well...Grewal was a pro-grade rider, perhaps, but not manifestly
awesome. Say what you like about their emotional states and
emotionality (whether real or manufactured), but what made guys like
Cipo and Pantani (and nowadays, Cavendish would be the prime example)
desireable was having gobs and gobs of talent.

Basically, to take Cavendish as my scapegoat here, he is the best
sprinter in the peloton, and thus almost any behavior that doesn't
impact his ability to win races (we're talking live boy/dead girl/
pretending to be in Mexico/pretending to be Ron Mexico here) is
acceptable behavior.

The standard of allowable behavior for pack fodder is lower.

My point is that emotionality isn't a deficiency if you're manifestly
great at riding a bike. It is a problem if you're merely incredibly
good at riding a bike.

PS: pro bike racing is stupid, just ask Magilla. Given his results,
maybe ask Grewal :).
Michael Press
2010-12-14 16:28:08 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
could call it "emotional", but it's a bit more than that. Some people
are emotional and manifest it outwardly in a positive way.
Definitely agreed. Lots of emotional people who make it big in sports,
cycling included. Think of hothead sprinters or nervous climbers.
Well...Grewal was a pro-grade rider, perhaps, but not manifestly
awesome. Say what you like about their emotional states and
emotionality (whether real or manufactured), but what made guys like
Cipo and Pantani (and nowadays, Cavendish would be the prime example)
desireable was having gobs and gobs of talent.
Basically, to take Cavendish as my scapegoat here, he is the best
sprinter in the peloton, and thus almost any behavior that doesn't
impact his ability to win races (we're talking live boy/dead girl/
pretending to be in Mexico/pretending to be Ron Mexico here) is
acceptable behavior.
The standard of allowable behavior for pack fodder is lower.
My point is that emotionality isn't a deficiency if you're manifestly
great at riding a bike. It is a problem if you're merely incredibly
good at riding a bike.
PS: pro bike racing is stupid, just ask Magilla. Given his results,
maybe ask Grewal :).
Cavendish behaves well consistently, and consequently
I am well disposed toward him. Equally talented but
ill-mannered people do not get the good will I have
for Mark Cavendish.
--
Michael Press
Amit Ghosh
2010-12-14 20:26:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
My point is that emotionality isn't a deficiency if you're manifestly
great at riding a bike. It is a problem if you're merely incredibly
good at riding a bike.
dumbass,

with these roller coaster guys when they are in a depressive state
they stop training, go AWOL or walk out on their team. that will
affect your ability to win races.

guys like cavendish and armstrong exhibit more typical dickish/jockish
behavior.
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-13 05:56:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by Marco
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
dumbass,
some riders can be very good but they can't be a good pro because they
are injury prone or they get sick too often, a disability if you will.
in grewal's case it was his emotions.
he sabotaged what could've been a long pro career. a guy like andreu
did not have the same ability but he was a solid pro for over a decade
not to mention some of the others that he beat at the olympics.
these emotional type guys (decanio is another) are actually
narcissists. guys that succeed long term are always more level
headed.
Grewal and Decanio likely exceeded their potential because of their manic
hyper-emotions. Their overall underachievement long-term was probably due
to typical genetic shortcomings vis-a-vis not having what the GT guys have
(with or without dope).

Guys like Tom Danielson, Pantani, and F. Vandenbroucke are more like the
headcases you described. And in another month, Robbie McEwen once he finds
out the only offer he has is from Fly V Australia for $25,000/year.

Magilla
Amit Ghosh
2010-12-13 15:02:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by MagillaGorilla
Grewal and Decanio likely exceeded their potential because of their manic
hyper-emotions.  Their overall underachievement long-term was probably due
to typical genetic shortcomings vis-a-vis not having what the GT guys have
(with or without dope).
on their best days they were good enough to be euro pro (if not GT
winners) but they didn't succeed in that arena. hyper emotions can't
make up for not having the underlying ability.
Post by MagillaGorilla
Guys like Tom Danielson, Pantani, and F. Vandenbroucke are more like the
headcases you described.  
i wouldn't put danielson in the same boat. all those other guys had
depressive phases where they walked out on their teams or pulled
disappearing acts and stopped training for long stretches.

if a guy is still training and showing up to races, he isn't in that
depressive state. danielson is more of a typical superstitious
hypochondriac.
Fred Flintstein
2010-12-13 15:30:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by MagillaGorilla
Grewal and Decanio likely exceeded their potential because of their manic
hyper-emotions. Their overall underachievement long-term was probably due
to typical genetic shortcomings vis-a-vis not having what the GT guys have
(with or without dope).
on their best days they were good enough to be euro pro (if not GT
winners) but they didn't succeed in that arena. hyper emotions can't
make up for not having the underlying ability.
Post by MagillaGorilla
Guys like Tom Danielson, Pantani, and F. Vandenbroucke are more like the
headcases you described.
i wouldn't put danielson in the same boat. all those other guys had
depressive phases where they walked out on their teams or pulled
disappearing acts and stopped training for long stretches.
if a guy is still training and showing up to races, he isn't in that
depressive state. danielson is more of a typical superstitious
hypochondriac.
Dumbasses,

For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.

He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.

Fred Flintstein
Amit Ghosh
2010-12-13 15:49:08 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 13, 10:30 am, Fred Flintstein
Post by Fred Flintstein
Dumbasses,
For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.
He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.
I agree.

Same goes for Ekimov or Danny Pate or Popovych or any number of riders
who were very good at the u-23/amateur level but supposedly didn't
live up to expectations at the top level.

But Danielson has added comic elements: strange stomach ailments,
racetime jitters and eskimo blood.
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
2010-12-13 23:13:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
On Dec 13, 10:30 am, Fred Flintstein
Post by Fred Flintstein
Dumbasses,
For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.
He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.
I agree.
Same goes for Ekimov or Danny Pate or Popovych or any number of riders
who were very good at the u-23/amateur level but supposedly didn't
live up to expectations at the top level.
But Danielson has added comic elements: strange stomach ailments,
racetime jitters and eskimo blood.
Dumbass -

And no bike handling skills.

That's not to be discounted. Someone who isn't relaxed riding in the
bunch expends more nervous energy. I had a friend who was a bit of a
whack job and he was very strong aerobically but he'd freak out and
get very nervous before races. His HR would be at AT on the startline.
Dude never got any results, not even in Cat 4.

I'm sure Danielson isn't that bad, but if you can't relax, it drains
your adrenals.

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Anton Berlin
2010-12-14 00:03:59 UTC
Permalink
Panic induced intervals.
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-14 08:45:09 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 13, 3:13 pm, "Kurgan. presented by Gringioni."
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Amit Ghosh
On Dec 13, 10:30 am, Fred Flintstein
Post by Fred Flintstein
Dumbasses,
For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.
He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.
I agree.
Same goes for Ekimov or Danny Pate or Popovych or any number of riders
who were very good at the u-23/amateur level but supposedly didn't
live up to expectations at the top level.
But Danielson has added comic elements: strange stomach ailments,
racetime jitters and eskimo blood.
Dumbass -
And no bike handling skills.
That's not to be discounted. Someone who isn't relaxed riding in the
bunch expends more nervous energy. I had a friend who was a bit of a
whack job and he was very strong aerobically but he'd freak out and
get very nervous before races. His HR would be at AT on the startline.
Dude never got any results, not even in Cat 4.
I'm sure Danielson isn't that bad, but if you can't relax, it drains
your adrenals.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Dumbass, you're posting as if Adrenaline Theory is a myth.
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-15 02:16:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Post by Amit Ghosh
On Dec 13, 10:30 am, Fred Flintstein
Post by Fred Flintstein
Dumbasses,
For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.
He's never shown any indication that he's capable of more.
I agree.
Same goes for Ekimov or Danny Pate or Popovych or any number of riders
who were very good at the u-23/amateur level but supposedly didn't
live up to expectations at the top level.
But Danielson has added comic elements: strange stomach ailments,
racetime jitters and eskimo blood.
Dumbass -
I'm sure Danielson isn't that bad, but if you can't relax, it drains
your adrenals.
thanks,
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
I betya' Stepphanie drains TD's ballsack.

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Magilla
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-15 01:57:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred Flintstein
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by MagillaGorilla
Grewal and Decanio likely exceeded their potential because of their manic
hyper-emotions. Their overall underachievement long-term was probably due
to typical genetic shortcomings vis-a-vis not having what the GT guys have
(with or without dope).
on their best days they were good enough to be euro pro (if not GT
winners) but they didn't succeed in that arena. hyper emotions can't
make up for not having the underlying ability.
Post by MagillaGorilla
Guys like Tom Danielson, Pantani, and F. Vandenbroucke are more like the
headcases you described.
i wouldn't put danielson in the same boat. all those other guys had
depressive phases where they walked out on their teams or pulled
disappearing acts and stopped training for long stretches.
if a guy is still training and showing up to races, he isn't in that
depressive state. danielson is more of a typical superstitious
hypochondriac.
Dumbasses,
For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.
Fred Flintstein
Try they need better dope.

Magilla
Fred Flintstein
2010-12-15 03:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by MagillaGorilla
Post by Fred Flintstein
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by MagillaGorilla
Grewal and Decanio likely exceeded their potential because of their manic
hyper-emotions. Their overall underachievement long-term was probably due
to typical genetic shortcomings vis-a-vis not having what the GT guys have
(with or without dope).
on their best days they were good enough to be euro pro (if not GT
winners) but they didn't succeed in that arena. hyper emotions can't
make up for not having the underlying ability.
Post by MagillaGorilla
Guys like Tom Danielson, Pantani, and F. Vandenbroucke are more like the
headcases you described.
i wouldn't put danielson in the same boat. all those other guys had
depressive phases where they walked out on their teams or pulled
disappearing acts and stopped training for long stretches.
if a guy is still training and showing up to races, he isn't in that
depressive state. danielson is more of a typical superstitious
hypochondriac.
Dumbasses,
For an awful lot of riders a top ten in a grand tour represents their
top end, and especially if they aren't exceptional bike handlers.
Fred Flintstein
Try they need better dope.
Magilla
About TD? Seriously? The guy that got his start with Coach Chem?

Fred Flintstein
MagillaGorilla
2010-12-15 01:56:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Amit Ghosh
Post by MagillaGorilla
Grewal and Decanio likely exceeded their potential because of their manic
hyper-emotions.  Their overall underachievement long-term was probably due
to typical genetic shortcomings vis-a-vis not having what the GT guys have
(with or without dope).
on their best days they were good enough to be euro pro (if not GT
winners) but they didn't succeed in that arena. hyper emotions can't
make up for not having the underlying ability.
Post by MagillaGorilla
Guys like Tom Danielson, Pantani, and F. Vandenbroucke are more like the
headcases you described.  
i wouldn't put danielson in the same boat. all those other guys had
depressive phases where they walked out on their teams or pulled
disappearing acts and stopped training for long stretches.
if a guy is still training and showing up to races, he isn't in that
depressive state. danielson is more of a typical superstitious
hypochondriac.
All TD has to do is get into a car wreck in Aspen or bang another teammate's
wife....

Magilla
Michael Press
2010-12-11 20:45:18 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by Marco
<snip>
Post by Ryan Cousineau
...and much more, very entertaining stuff
<snip>
Agree... this Alexi stuff is entertaining and awesome. Particularly so
for me and the generation of riders who were around when he started.
Indulge me a few brief Alexi stories with a common theme...
1. Berkeley Hills RR, late 1970's, junior race to earn points (10
deep) to go to world championship trials: Two riders off the front,
Alexi and his teammate working their asses off to pull them back, most
all the rest of us sitting on waiting to sprint for 3rd. The two stay
away. I got 2nd in the sprint, and thus 4th in the race. Alexi and his
teammate didn't place. My friends and I walk by Alexi afterward, and
he's livid and spitting and cussing at us, "You fukkin wheelsuckers,
you race like losers, blah, blah, blah..."
2. Team Time Trial at junior worlds team trials in Colorado Springs
that same year: Groups of four were chosen to ride together based on
the staff's assessment of similar abilities. I don't remember the
following due to oxygen deprivation most likely, but one of my
teammates that day (Sterling McBride) recalls it clearly. In the
latter half of the race, the four of us were plugging away into the
wind when out of nowhere, Alexi comes blowing by us ALL BY HIMSELF!!!
He had dropped his teammates in a TTT because he could go faster
alone! Who knows, maybe he attacked them?!?!
3. The following year at some OTC camp: Alexi pees on a guy's bike who
he doesn't respect ...but then gets the shit beaten out of him by said
bike's owner.
My point is, from an early age, he showed the fire and scrappiness
that would define his entire bike racing career. In my experience, 95+
% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good
genetics in the family (e.g., Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well
as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel off of raw
emotion.
Sound as if he learned something from event 1.
--
Michael Press
Fred
2010-12-13 02:23:10 UTC
Permalink
In my experience, 95+% of the riders that take the line at any level don't have the passion
to win. I know I didn't, and still don't. Clearly there are good genetics in the family (e.g., >Rishi too) but I think Alexi did as well as he did because of his rare ability to tap into and fuel >off of raw emotion.
Unless all winners come from the same 4-%, you can only conclude that
passion to win isn't all that important, certainly not a defining
factor...

Fred
Fred
2010-12-13 02:33:27 UTC
Permalink
First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group. It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did. In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.

Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb. He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass. All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.

Fred
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-14 08:53:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group.  It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did.  In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.
Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb.  He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass.  All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.
Fred
And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!
Fred
2010-12-14 15:22:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Fred
First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group.  It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did.  In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.
Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb.  He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass.  All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.
Fred
And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!
Just 'cause I didn't tell you what he said doesn't mean I don't
remember what he said...

anyway, what he said wasn't the point, and you know that.

Fred
A. Dumas
2010-12-14 17:58:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
anyway, what he said wasn't the point
It is now.
Fred Flintstein
2010-12-14 19:44:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Fred
anyway, what he said wasn't the point
It is now.
John Lieswyn called me a moron once.

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/1f4bbb247bbf2e47

Fred Flintstein
Fred
2010-12-15 00:03:01 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 14, 12:44 pm, Fred Flintstein
Post by Fred Flintstein
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Fred
anyway, what he said wasn't the point
It is now.
John Lieswyn called me a moron once.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/1f4bbb247bbf2e47
Fred Flintstein
Well, are you?

Fred
Fred Flintstein
2010-12-15 03:36:29 UTC
Permalink
On Dec 14, 12:44 pm, Fred Flintstein
Post by Fred Flintstein
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Fred
anyway, what he said wasn't the point
It is now.
John Lieswyn called me a moron once.
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.bicycles.racing/msg/1f4bbb247bbf2e47
Fred Flintstein
Well, are you?
Fred
Dumbass,

At times. But I try not to broadcast it too much.

Fred Flintstein
Fred
2010-12-15 00:03:45 UTC
Permalink
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Fred
anyway, what he said wasn't the point
It is now.
no it isn't.
A. Dumas
2010-12-15 13:13:52 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by A. Dumas
Post by Fred
anyway, what he said wasn't the point
It is now.
no it isn't.
I made it the point. RESPECT MY AUTHOROTAY!
Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
2010-12-14 19:54:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Fred
First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group.  It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did.  In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.
Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb.  He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass.  All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.
Fred
And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!
Just 'cause I didn't tell you what he said doesn't mean I don't
remember what he said...
anyway, what he said wasn't the point, and you know that.
Dumbass -

So what'd he say?

thanks,

Kurgan. presented by Gringioni.
Ryan Cousineau
2010-12-15 07:53:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Fred
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Fred
First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group.  It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did.  In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.
Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb.  He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass.  All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.
Fred
And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!
Just 'cause I didn't tell you what he said doesn't mean I don't
remember what he said...
anyway, what he said wasn't the point, and you know that.
Fred
I need closure on this anecdote.
Beloved Fred No. 1
2010-12-15 12:06:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
I need closure
<http://www.newgrounds.com/portal/view/480006>
yirgster
2010-12-16 03:38:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Fred
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Fred
First ever bike race I ever saw (not counting the TdF on tv), I
watched AG soft-pedaling up a climb after he'd come unglued from a
breakaway group.  It was a stage race, and I had no idea about or
appreciation of why he'd just sit up like he did.  In retrospect, I
know exactly why he eased up, but at the time I didn't understand.
Anyway, not knowing any better, I tried to encourage him up the
climb.  He could've just graciously accepted my cheers, but no, he has
to say something truly smart-ass.  All I could think at the time was
what an ass he was.
Fred
And you can't remember what he said?! WORST! STORY! EVER!!1!
Just 'cause I didn't tell you what he said doesn't mean I don't
remember what he said...
anyway, what he said wasn't the point, and you know that.
Fred
I need closure on this anecdote.
See your or a shrink! Go on a six month silent retreat! Buy some good,
oops, can't say that. I can offer yet additional insightful, useful
suggestions.
Anton Berlin
2010-12-28 15:23:58 UTC
Permalink
Bump due to spam flood
c***@gmail.com
2016-01-01 21:07:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-olympics-in-la
" I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"
"Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
pocket was to rely on the unreliable."
"Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don't have
any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."
...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
saw the race.
I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.
There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
spitting on the camera man.
I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
i will have you all know that Joker was on LSD also... this is how the sprinter lost to the mankie indian...
Davey Crockett
2016-01-17 19:13:12 UTC
Permalink
***@gmail.com a écrit profondement:


On Wednesday, December 8, 2010 at 6:58:09 PM UTC-5, Ryan Cousineau wrote:
| > In his own, awesome words:
| >
| > http://www.alexigrewal.com/index.php/blog/104-the-skinsuit-aka-the-olympics-in-la
| >
| > " I was not thinking what I could do to help Davis, I was thinking how
| > I could use the situation to work all my rivals against each other"
| >
| > "Phinney was wearing a skin suit.... The skinsuit was information I
| > filed away. Only one pocket was sewn into it and we faced a hot,
| > hilly two hundred kilometer race. One feed zone per lap on a
| > downhill, right near the start finish, wearing a skin suit with one
| > pocket was to rely on the unreliable."
| >
| > "Two laps to go Davis asks me for food. I lied, said I don't have
| > any, I justified it in my mind by thinking I might need it myself."
| >
| > ...and much more, very entertaining stuff, not just about hiding food
| > from the team leader, but also about his tactical choices, and how he
| > saw the race.
| >
| > I did a cursory search, and haven't seen a post in rbr that breaks
| > down 1984 Olympic road race race to this extent. Grewal's explanation
| > is as fascinating as it is Machiavellian.
| >
| > There's more goodies in the rest of the site, including his story of
| > spitting on the camera man.
| >
| > I remind you this reinforces my "amateur bike racing is awesome"
| > theory, since in 1984 this was an amateurs-only race.
| i will have you all know that Joker was on LSD also... this is how the sprinter lost to the mankie indian...
On LSD?

Then he should have been doing a Flyer ;)

Ryan --- Are you still around?
--
Davey Crockett says Check out the Vuelta
<http://algarveservers.com/sportsite/>
<http://inconnu.freeshell.org/sportsite>
<http://bellacanela.com>
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