Discussion:
Flying Scotsman (movie)
(too old to reply)
b***@mambo.ucolick.org
2008-08-14 21:42:07 UTC
Permalink
[UCI's harassment of Obree]
Obree's positions were irrelevant and inapplicable to road racing.
No it wasn't. Since the position(s) gave an aero-advantage riders
would start to use it at ITT's besides for WC events. So soon after
there would be a lot of riders in silly positions, and that was
exactly what the UCI didn't want to happen.
Dude,

If you're going to argue with Sundquist about
pursuiting, please have the decency to crosspost
it to rec.bicycles.racing.
You better believe that sports fans show up, turn on the TV, or eagerly read
to see new equipment.
No they don't. Sure a tiny, tiny segment of equipment nerds cares
about the equipment used, but the vast majority don't even know what
brand of bicycle their favorite riders uses. The fans care about the
riders and the races. TdF is front page stuff every day in the country
I live in, but I have never seen equipment mentioned unless it was in
broad general terms like N.N:'s had a wheel failure. I know people who
have followed cycling for decades and while they can easily recall a
spectacular race 15 years ago, they wouldn't know what Dura-Ace was.
Yes, but those who know what Dura-Ace is, often care
about which racer uses what. "Win on Sunday, sell on
Monday" - ask a retailer, or read the people who post to
Usenet about, for ex., how many times Campy or Shimano
has won the Tour (as if Campy or Shimano could
win a Tour by themselves).

Ben
Tom Kunich
2008-08-14 21:52:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Yes, but those who know what Dura-Ace is, often care
about which racer uses what. "Win on Sunday, sell on
Monday" - ask a retailer, or read the people who post to
Usenet about, for ex., how many times Campy or Shimano
has won the Tour (as if Campy or Shimano could
win a Tour by themselves).
You only have to realize that it was the winning at races that made Shimano
since Suntour had a definite advertising advantage before that. Mountain
biking grew Shimano to the point where they could really compete in road
groups and then moving into sponsoring grand tour teams made a HUGE
difference in Shimano sales.

Before US Postal, Shimano was hardly used in the peloton. Now it is probably
the majority despite the fact that Campy is repairable and Shimano really
isn't.
Tom Sherman
2008-08-15 00:43:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Yes, but those who know what Dura-Ace is, often care
about which racer uses what. "Win on Sunday, sell on
Monday" - ask a retailer, or read the people who post to
Usenet about, for ex., how many times Campy or Shimano
has won the Tour (as if Campy or Shimano could
win a Tour by themselves).
You only have to realize that it was the winning at races that made
Shimano since Suntour had a definite advertising advantage before that.
Mountain biking grew Shimano to the point where they could really
compete in road groups and then moving into sponsoring grand tour teams
made a HUGE difference in Shimano sales.
Before US Postal, Shimano was hardly used in the peloton. Now it is
probably the majority despite the fact that Campy is repairable and
Shimano really isn't.
The repair issue ONLY applies to brifters.

As for the professional peloton, I doubt anyone is riding rebuilt Campy
brifters. Of course, next year every professional with Campy will have
new 11-speed equipment.

For non-professional riders, Shimano has become more common since it is
overwhelming preferred over Campy in the OEM market. I would not be
surprised to see SRAM overtake Campy in the OEM road market in the near
future.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Ryan Cousineau
2008-08-15 01:28:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Yes, but those who know what Dura-Ace is, often care
about which racer uses what. "Win on Sunday, sell on
Monday" - ask a retailer, or read the people who post to
Usenet about, for ex., how many times Campy or Shimano
has won the Tour (as if Campy or Shimano could
win a Tour by themselves).
You only have to realize that it was the winning at races that made Shimano
since Suntour had a definite advertising advantage before that. Mountain
biking grew Shimano to the point where they could really compete in road
groups and then moving into sponsoring grand tour teams made a HUGE
difference in Shimano sales.
I think you're considerably underestimating the effect of Shimano's
technical innovations on its sales figures, notably indexing.
Post by Tom Kunich
Before US Postal, Shimano was hardly used in the peloton. Now it is probably
the majority despite the fact that Campy is repairable and Shimano really
isn't.
Equipment at the pro level is almost entirely a matter of sponsorship
budgets. The only ProTour (RIP) team I'm aware of that cops to paying
for parts is CSC, and they do it because they have lucrative
sponsorships with component makers (FSA?) that don't make shifters but
do make cranks, for example.
--
Ryan Cousineau ***@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
p***@gmail.com
2008-08-15 00:12:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
If you're going to argue with Sundquist about
pursuiting, please have the decency to crosspost
it to rec.bicycles.racing.
Why, I consider it bad usenet etiquette to cross-post to newsgroups
one doesn't read.
Besides Mr. Sundquist is man enough to defend his ideas and attack
mine without any outside help if that is what you are suggesting.
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Yes, but those who know what Dura-Ace is, often care
about which racer uses what. "Win on Sunday, sell on
Monday" - ask a retailer, or read the people who post to
Usenet about, for ex., how many times Campy or Shimano
has won the Tour (as if Campy or Shimano could
win a Tour by themselves).
I don't dispute that it is a lucrative niche to sell expensive cycling
components; Cervelo was a minor player in the field until team CSC-
Tiscali signed a sponsor contract with them. The "new 3T" 2008 line is
almost selling faster than they can produce. I am sure that the
sponsor contract with a major team like CSC-SB plays a major role in
that since 3T had been out of the pro league for some time, damn even
I lust for some 3T Ergosum handlebars on my next bike build.
But here is my point, a lot of those people who are interested in bike
equipment and that buy expensive parts doesn't follow pro racing, the
latter being the point discussed.
Here is my important point; Even if you take all the people who even
has a clue about what Dura.-Ace is, these people will still be a small
minority of the bicycling fans.
Let's take some numbers. I live in a small country (Denmark) with 5.5
million inhabitants. This years TdF was watched live by an average of
331.000 with 800.000 viewers watching the Prato Nevoso stage. These
numbers only include one TV station, so it doesn't include all those
that because of work couldn't follow the race live and had to watch
the race recaps on other TV-stations in the evening, or those who saw
it online on the internet, or those who saw the Eurosport or German
channels because they liked the commentators better. Roughly 1.3
million Danes in total watched at least some stages of this years TdF.
That is about 1 in 4 of the entire population. Pretty good numbers
considered previous doping scandals and that there were no Danes
participating this year with even a slight hope of getting in top 20.
Only a small fraction of these totally ordinary people even know what
Dura-Ace is, nor do they care. Same pattern all over Europe.

--
Regards
b***@mambo.ucolick.org
2008-08-15 03:37:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
If you're going to argue with Sundquist about
pursuiting, please have the decency to crosspost
it to rec.bicycles.racing.
Why, I consider it bad usenet etiquette to cross-post to newsgroups
one doesn't read.
Besides Mr. Sundquist is man enough to defend his ideas and attack
mine without any outside help if that is what you are suggesting.
Not at all. Mr. Sundquist is far more qualified to discuss
pursuiting than anybody else in rec.bicycles.racing.
However, rec.bicycles.*, like bike racing, is a spectator
sport as well as a recreational activity. Obree, Obree's
position, the UCI, and telling Sundquist about the track
are all very much on topic for rbr. And it's an rbr tradition
(ever since our John Hansen told our Shaun Wallace to
try riding a fixed gear). Welcome.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Yes, but those who know what Dura-Ace is, often care
about which racer uses what.  "Win on Sunday, sell on
Monday" - ask a retailer, or read the people who post to
Usenet about, for ex., how many times Campy or Shimano
has won the Tour (as if Campy or Shimano could
win a Tour by themselves).
I don't dispute that it is a lucrative niche to sell expensive cycling
components; Cervelo was a minor player in the field until team CSC-
Tiscali signed a sponsor contract with them. The "new 3T" 2008 line is
almost selling faster than they can produce. I am sure that the
sponsor contract with a major team like CSC-SB plays a major role in
that since 3T had been out of the pro league for some time, damn even
I lust for some 3T Ergosum handlebars on my next bike build.
But here is my point, a lot of those people who are interested in bike
equipment and that buy expensive parts doesn't follow pro racing, the
latter being the point discussed.
Here is my important point; Even if you take all the people who even
has a clue about what Dura.-Ace is, these people will still be a small
minority of the bicycling fans.
Let's take some numbers.  I live in a small country (Denmark) with 5.5
million inhabitants. This years TdF was watched live  by an average of
331.000 with 800.000 viewers watching the Prato Nevoso stage. These
numbers only include one TV station, so it doesn't include all those
that because of work couldn't follow the race live and had to watch
the race recaps on other TV-stations in the evening, or those who saw
it online on the internet, or those who saw the Eurosport or German
channels because they liked the commentators better. Roughly 1.3
million Danes in total watched at least some stages of this years TdF.
That is about 1 in 4 of the entire population. Pretty good numbers
considered previous doping scandals and that there were no Danes
participating this year with even a slight hope of getting in top 20.
Only a small fraction of these totally ordinary people even know what
Dura-Ace is, nor do they care. Same pattern all over Europe.
First of all, I suspect a larger fraction of those viewers know
the names Campagnolo and Shimano, even if they have no
idea about Dura-Ace. Car manufacturers sponsor car racing
to sell family sedans and unmodded pickup trucks, not to
sell racecars.

Second, the percentage of Danes who are fans of bike racing
but don't know Dura-Ace is not what matters, in terms of
ad buys. It's the percentage of potential Dura-Ace (or
Ultegra, 105) buyers who are fans of bike racing that matters
for Shimano's ad budget. If all the bike buyers watched
TV coverage of Paris-Brest-Paris and camped out on the
roadsides like they do at Alpe d'Huez, Shimano would roll
out a PBP sponsor effort similar to the TdF. (Bike companies
do sponsor non-race events, just not to the same degree,
because the PR return is less.)

Ben
p***@gmail.com
2008-08-15 14:55:10 UTC
Permalink
***@mambo.ucolick.org skrev:

[cross-post to r.b.r. removed]
[snip: bad netiqutte to x-post]
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Not at all. Mr. Sundquist is far more qualified to discuss
pursuiting than anybody else in rec.bicycles.racing.
However, rec.bicycles.*, like bike racing, is a spectator
sport as well as a recreational activity. Obree, Obree's
position, the UCI, and telling Sundquist about the track
are all very much on topic for rbr. And it's an rbr tradition
(ever since our John Hansen told our Shaun Wallace to
try riding a fixed gear). Welcome.
Well, it doesn't matter whether this thread also is on topic for
another separate newsgroup. In my experience cross-posting is a bad
idea, especially when someone suddenly decides to cross-post in the
middle of a thread. The newcomers usually miss the entire context.

[snip]
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
First of all, I suspect a larger fraction of those viewers know
the names Campagnolo and Shimano, even if they have no
idea about Dura-Ace. Car manufacturers sponsor car racing
to sell family sedans and unmodded pickup trucks, not to
sell racecars.
Tell me about the thriving market of Campagnolo equipped city-bikes
and commuter bikes. I really don't think there is much of a market for
Campagnolo outside the road racing bike market. Anyway when people buy
cars they tend to go after the name of the car manufacturer and the
car name, not what the engine is called or what brand of tires that
are on. Same with bicycles, the majority of people want to buy a
Centurion or Nishiki (known brand names in Denmark that has nothing to
do with the original manufacturers) or a Trek bicycle, not a bicycle
with Shimano components on.

I think your post illustrates the problems with cross-posting. You
seem to think that I somehow dispute whether it is a good idea for
bike component manufacturers to sponsor pro races, but I don't. It is
a very good idea for Campagnolo to sponsor pro teams.
The original discussion stemmed from the postulate that bicycle fans
eagerly read the newspapers or watched races to follow so called
technical innovations, my point is that they don't, and that the
average cycling fan doesn't even know what Dura-Ace is,
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Second, the percentage of Danes who are fans of bike racing
but don't know Dura-Ace is not what matters, in terms of
ad buys. It's the percentage of potential Dura-Ace (or
Ultegra, 105) buyers who are fans of bike racing that matters
for Shimano's ad budget.
Well, it is what matters regarding what is being discussed (that
racing fans don't care much about technical details).
Otherwise I don't dispute that it is good business to sponsor pro
teams.

--
Regards
d***@mac.com
2008-08-15 15:41:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Tell me about the thriving market of Campagnolo equipped city-bikes
and commuter bikes.
No need to go on, here, please.
Post by p***@gmail.com
I really don't think there is much of a market for
Campagnolo outside the road racing bike market.
Just to note, it's hard enough I think _in_ the r-r market. Just
sayin'.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Anyway when people buy
cars they tend to go after the name of the car manufacturer and the
car name, not what the engine is called or what brand of tires that
are on. Same with bicycles, the majority of people want to buy a
Centurion or Nishiki (known brand names in Denmark that has nothing to
do with the original manufacturers) or a Trek bicycle, not a bicycle
with Shimano components on.
True to a large extent I'm sure but here (USA) people seem to be very
aware of Campy v. Shimano.

<http://campyonly.com/> for instance.

I haven't read "the magazines" (USA) for ages but the Campy/Shimano
"debate" used to supply ample fodder.
Post by p***@gmail.com
The original discussion stemmed from the postulate that bicycle fans
eagerly read the newspapers or watched races to follow so called
technical innovations, my point is that they don't, and that the
average cycling fan doesn't even know what Dura-Ace is
Not "newspapers" but the periodicals, and even such as
<cyclingnews.com> carry "technical features".

Maybe the difference is a subgroup of "fans", which might be "racers"
or "roadies", etc. etc., some of whom are intensely interested in
brands and features.
Post by p***@gmail.com
Well, it is what matters regarding what is being discussed (that
racing fans don't care much about technical details).
Of passing interest or less I'm sure to many fans, especially once
Shimano became established and was no longer "news" per se.

Just a comment: the rise of Japanese componentry (at least in the USA
where I live) came from, as far as I can tell, making less-expensive-
than-Campy stuff that worked (unlike at least some of Campy's less-
than-expensive stuff), getting said components marketed OEM during the
Bike Boom of the 70's on bikes that were accessible IRT price and
required riding expertise. Including the slant-parallelogram (Suntour
Cyclone) rear derailleur (intro given below as 1975).

(Hey Sheldon, miss ya!):

<http://www.sheldonbrown.com/suntour.html>

(quoting)
For those who care, here's more about old Sun Tour freewheels:

In the early '70s, Sun Tour freewheels were a revolutionary
development, markedly superior to their European competition (Atom,
Cyclo, Everest, Regina etc.)

Sun Tour freewheels provided much better shifting than older designs
due to the superior design of the sprocket teeth. The tops of the
teeth were not squared flat nor grooved, as with older designs, but
were asymmetrical, with a slant inward. This provided a sharper
outside corner of each tooth for better chain pickup, and the slant
helped the chain slide down sideways into good engagement if it was
tending to run along the tops of the teeth.
(end quote)

Goes on to talk about improvements in remover tools, and Suntour's
making the all-threaded-cog freewheel obsolete via splined cog
attachment. This (my words) applies to both ease of cog removal and
improved understandability of "what cog goes where" (Regina
reference). And later, the Winner "freewheel board".

Yeah, the Cyclone rear ders. tended to break springs which were not
available as parts, if you could get the 'railer apart in the first
place-- and so The Debate began <g>?

However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Bill C
2008-08-15 16:05:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff".  --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
Bill C
Tom Sherman
2008-08-16 00:35:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-18 16:55:42 UTC
Permalink
In article <g857bq$h6i$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-19 01:40:39 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?

Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-19 03:16:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Part of the answer to that question is that the Japanese were benefitting
from almost 40 years of government control and direction of their industry.

They also benefitted from the work of Demming on QC.

The short answer, however, is MITI. (aka "Japan Inc.")

Barry Harmon
Tom Sherman
2008-08-19 03:41:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Part of the answer to that question is that the Japanese were benefitting
from almost 40 years of government control and direction of their industry.
They also benefitted from the work of Demming on QC.
The short answer, however, is MITI. (aka "Japan Inc.")
How much influence did MITI have on the US "transplant" operations?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-19 14:04:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US
workers than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Part of the answer to that question is that the Japanese were
benefitting from almost 40 years of government control and direction
of their industry.
They also benefitted from the work of Demming on QC.
The short answer, however, is MITI. (aka "Japan Inc.")
How much influence did MITI have on the US "transplant" operations?
Well, think about it for a minute.

The first car company was Honda, which built their first here in 1982 in
Marysville, Ohio.

Honda had been building in Japan for many years and MITI had been
"guiding" Honda for at least 35 years.

The Japanese government helped with draconian laws against older and used
cars, which assured the car companies of a strong domestic market.

How much influence? Probably quite a lot.

Barry Harmon
Tom Kunich
2008-08-19 03:49:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Part of the answer to that question is that the Japanese were benefitting
from almost 40 years of government control and direction of their industry.
They also benefitted from the work of Demming on QC.
The short answer, however, is MITI. (aka "Japan Inc.")
Actually the answer is that the Japanese car companies in the USA don't have
worker's unions like the American companies do. That means that management
has a great deal more control over the workers and can fire them a great
deal easier than American companies can.
d***@mac.com
2008-08-20 13:36:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Part of the answer to that question is that the Japanese were benefitting
from almost 40 years of government control and direction of their industry.
They also benefitted from the work of Demming on QC.
The short answer, however, is  MITI.  (aka "Japan Inc.")
Actually the answer is that the Japanese car companies in the USA don't have
worker's unions like the American companies do. That means that management
has a great deal more control over the workers and can fire them a great
deal easier than American companies can.
Bash the unions, bash the liberals wherever they are suspected.

Management is Holy and must be rewarded no matter outcome.

Workers must be punished, and fired whenever possible.

Or:

(Wiki, Deming article quote):
He is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing
and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage.
Despite being considered something of a hero in Japan, he was only
beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his
death. [2]

Lots of good reading in that article.

An old-time IBM "computer guy" (not one of your imaginary "Nobel Prize
winners", TK), who worked with putting the 850's into Venezuela oil
prod., and other-- IOW, someone "who was around" in management in the
bad old days, said, at the time of Deming's death, "They didn't want
him here" (USA).

US autos suck? Management is the problem. Always has been the problem,
probably always will be the problem.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming>

Nope, never been in an auto plant. I was a qualified production MIG/
TIG sheetmetal welder (full-seam enclosures, not spot welding <g>),
for GE (GPC plant, Illinois) , building the "cabinets" seen indoors/
outdoors that contain electrical power handling ("switching")
equipment. Whose managers could have taken many a lesson from Deming,
thank you very much.

Look at it this way, TK (and I know I'm clutching to thin hope here):
Japanese management, among "other"* and speaking very broadly,
embraced Deming. USA management did not. Japan got their game
together, including (and this, most telling, is never included in "the
story") "improving the early, awful USA-import Civics" which had
motors and clutches that were not ready for USA Prime Time.

*Having Uncle Sugar do free demo work on outmoded manufacturing
facilities, etc.

(strongly related):
Well, McCain (the Original Maverick) (gag me, code word for "Original
Management") has pulled ahead in at least some polls, so at least
something is right with the world, take comfort there!

Gosh, just like old times. Obree...? Another glaring 3-D MonsterScope
management problem. --D-y
Bill C
2008-08-20 14:05:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Part of the answer to that question is that the Japanese were benefitting
from almost 40 years of government control and direction of their industry.
They also benefitted from the work of Demming on QC.
The short answer, however, is  MITI.  (aka "Japan Inc.")
Actually the answer is that the Japanese car companies in the USA don't have
worker's unions like the American companies do. That means that management
has a great deal more control over the workers and can fire them a great
deal easier than American companies can.
Bash the unions, bash the liberals wherever they are suspected.
Management is Holy and must be rewarded no matter outcome.
Workers must be punished, and fired whenever possible.
He is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing
and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage.
Despite being considered something of a hero in Japan, he was only
beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his
death. [2]
Lots of good reading in that article.
An old-time IBM "computer guy" (not one of your imaginary "Nobel Prize
winners", TK), who worked with putting the 850's into Venezuela oil
prod., and other-- IOW, someone "who was around" in management in the
bad old days, said, at the time of Deming's death, "They didn't want
him here" (USA).
US autos suck? Management is the problem. Always has been the problem,
probably always will be the problem.
Now, Now D-y,
C'mon. After Mommy and Daddy buy him into prep school, legacy him
into and through an Ivy League college, Yale comes to mind here, with
a few donations he has to have a productive career.
They get him a nice corner office, a staff, and something to run, at
least on paper, or they actually do put him in charge of something,
and disaster follows, but it's not Biff's fault, it's those damned
ignorant workers.
C'mon these folks can't possibly collect enough welfare to support
their lifestyle, so they've gotta have some help, right? Isn't this
what the corporate welfare is paying for? I thought that was an
earmark?
Rich, lazy, arrogant idiots need lovin' too.
Post by d***@mac.com
Gosh, just like old times. Obree...? Another glaring 3-D MonsterScope
management problem.  --D-y- Hide quoted text -
- Show quoted text -
Bill C
Tom Kunich
2008-08-20 14:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Part of the answer to that question is that the Japanese were benefitting
from almost 40 years of government control and direction of their industry.
They also benefitted from the work of Demming on QC.
The short answer, however, is MITI. (aka "Japan Inc.")
Actually the answer is that the Japanese car companies in the USA don't have
worker's unions like the American companies do. That means that management
has a great deal more control over the workers and can fire them a great
deal easier than American companies can.
Bash the unions, bash the liberals wherever they are suspected.
So describing the effects of unions is now bashing? No matter what you think
this is still the case.
Post by d***@mac.com
He is regarded as having had more impact upon Japanese manufacturing
and business than any other individual not of Japanese heritage.
Despite being considered something of a hero in Japan, he was only
beginning to win widespread recognition in the U.S. at the time of his
death. [2]
Deming did NOTHING that dozens of othres hadn't suggested for years. He was
one who wrote a book about it.

Judging from your posting you never bothered to read Deming's book. One of
his statements was something along the lines that "competition is evil" and
that everyone should work together for the betterment of business.
d***@mac.com
2008-08-20 20:27:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
So describing the effects of unions is now bashing? No matter what you think
this is still the case.
"Effects of unions"... effects of unions... let's see here: work
conditions-- safety, long and short term; 40 hr work week (humane at-
work requirements), child labor, plus benefits incl. pensions.

Which of those would you not want if you worked someplace?
Post by Tom Kunich
Deming did NOTHING that dozens of othres hadn't suggested for years. He was
one who wrote a book about it.
He's the one who went to Japan. Apparently, he made the connections he
made there via results. There's info IRT to his honored status in
Japan in the Wiki article and elsewhere.
Post by Tom Kunich
Judging from your posting you never bothered to read Deming's book. One of
his statements was something along the lines that "competition is evil" and
that everyone should work together for the betterment of business.
Cite.

Wiki quote:

(like, quoting and stuff):

David Salsburg wrote:
"He was known for his kindness to and consideration for those he
worked with, for his robust, if very subtle, humor, and for his
interest in music. He sang in a choir, played drums and flute, and
published several original pieces of sacred music." (page 254, The
Lady Tasting Tea)[14]

[back to Wiki]

Later, from his home in Washington, D.C., Dr. Deming continued running
his own consultancy business in the United States, largely unknown and
unrecognized in his country of origin and work. In 1980, he was
featured prominently in an NBC documentary titled If Japan can... Why
can't we? about the increasing industrial competition the United
States was facing from Japan. As a result of the broadcast, demand for
his services increased dramatically, and Deming continued consulting
for industry throughout the world until his death at the age of 93.
(end quote from Wiki)

Uh-oh!!! KINDNESS TO WORKERS!!!! Deming was a COMMIE!!!

(14 Points, quoted from Wiki):

1. Create constancy of purpose toward improvement of product and
service, with the aim to become competitive and stay in business, and
to provide jobs.
(end quote)

PROVIDE JOBS AS A REASON TO BE IN BUSINESS?!?!?!
COMMIE COMMIE COMMIE!!!

(quoting as above, #10):

Eliminate slogans, exhortations, and targets for the work force asking
for zero defects and new levels of productivity. Such exhortations
only create adversarial relationships, as the bulk of the causes of
low quality and low productivity belong to the system and thus lie
beyond the power of the work force.
(end quote)

PROBLEMS ARE NOT THE FAULT OF THE ___WORKERS___????

I guess that means problems are the fault of management, who are
running things and thus in a position to do things right-- or wrong?

I guess you and Deming disagree on certain basic points, TK.

Well like they say, you've heard of him, but somehow I doubt he ever
heard of you.

Or, you could tell the "my lunch with Deming" story you've been
holding back on us <g>.
--D-y
Tom Kunich
2008-08-20 21:19:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Kunich
So describing the effects of unions is now bashing? No matter what you think
this is still the case.
"Effects of unions"... effects of unions... let's see here: work
conditions-- safety, long and short term; 40 hr work week (humane at-
work requirements), child labor, plus benefits incl. pensions.
Unions accomplished some marvelous things. And then after doing that they
grew fat and smart-assed about their powers. One of the unions I belonged to
would go out on strike in a second to protect an illegal alien worker but
wouldn't support a smart woman union member who had seniority over a dumb
male worker who got promoted ahead of her.

The unions kept pounding companies even after it was plain that such tactics
would destroy the companies that were the fortune for all. Have you EVER
been to the rust belt? There is STILL 30% or more unemployment there and
while I was there working on medical instruments the Steelworkers Union had
"organized" the people cleaning motels and were on strike! The motel owners
simply took care of it themselves and left the workers penniless out in the
picket line.

The bottom line is that when the unions have intelligent goals they're fine.
When they have nothing more than slash and burn tactics for no good reason
that "I want MORE" they become nothing more than crap.
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Kunich
Deming did NOTHING that dozens of othres hadn't suggested for years. He was
one who wrote a book about it.
He's the one who went to Japan.
Japan came to him. As I stated he was the one who wrote a book that
triggered the Japanese revival. Deming was not saying anything that others
weren't. He simply had better advertising. This is NOT knocking him by the
way. I'm simply saying that he was not unique in concept, only in practice.
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Kunich
Judging from your posting you never bothered to read Deming's book. One of
his statements was something along the lines that "competition is evil" and
that everyone should work together for the betterment of business.
Uh-oh!!! KINDNESS TO WORKERS!!!! Deming was a COMMIE!!!
It would probably make a whole lot more sense to you if you understood the
real differences between the US and Japan. Instead you believe that it is
the mean American industrialist who is the cause of it all. Fact is that it
happens to be a mutual problem between management and the unions.

When I worked for BART I was continuously harassed and threatened with
firing. Not from the management - from the Union. For one thing - you had to
stand in line with your timecard and couldn't punch in until the hour on the
dot. Understand - you couldn't punch in ONE minute early. Then 15 seconds
after the hour the punch time turned from blue to red. If you had red three
times in a row you were fired even though you were 16 seconds after the
starting time AND you were in a line with 20 other men. That was entirely
union.

In most of Japan the "unions" are owned and operated by the companies! So
perhaps you ought to understand the massive differences between here and
there before you start telling us how Deming would improve things here.
Tom Sherman
2008-08-21 00:05:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
...
The bottom line is that when the unions have intelligent goals they're
fine. When they have nothing more than slash and burn tactics for no
good reason that "I want MORE" they become nothing more than crap....
However, when management and capital adopt the slash and burn tactics,
they are praised in the mass media.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
d***@mac.com
2008-08-21 12:16:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Unions accomplished some marvelous things.
This could be a first!
Post by Tom Kunich
And then after doing that they
grew fat and smart-assed about their powers. One of the unions I belonged to
would go out on strike in a second to protect an illegal alien worker but
wouldn't support a smart woman union member who had seniority over a dumb
male worker who got promoted ahead of her.
That is "bad management, Union-style".
Post by Tom Kunich
The unions kept pounding companies even after it was plain that such tactics
would destroy the companies that were the fortune for all. Have you EVER
been to the rust belt?
I lived in Bloomington-Normal (Illinois) from '64 until '84. Close
enough?

There is STILL 30% or more unemployment there and
Post by Tom Kunich
while I was there working on medical instruments the Steelworkers Union had
"organized" the people cleaning motels and were on strike! The motel owners
simply took care of it themselves and left the workers penniless out in the
picket line.
Bad union management. A much, much better example would be the long,
painful strike of the Catepillar plant in Goodfield (Peoria), ca.
1980. Sorry, I'm not gonna look that one up right now. BAD.
Post by Tom Kunich
The bottom line is that when the unions have intelligent goals they're fine.
When they have nothing more than slash and burn tactics for no good reason
that "I want MORE" they become nothing more than crap.
Bad management.
Post by Tom Kunich
Japan came to him.
Dang. OK, let's get this one straightened out. He went to Japan to
work on a census. While there, he was invited to teach statistical
control (production).
Post by Tom Kunich
As I stated he was the one who wrote a book that
triggered the Japanese revival.
He went to Japan. Lectured, 1950; especially noted was his
presentation at the Mt. Hakone Conference Center. His refusal to
accept royalties led to institution of the Deming Prize.
Post by Tom Kunich
Deming was not saying anything that others
weren't. He simply had better advertising. This is NOT knocking him by the
way. I'm simply saying that he was not unique in concept, only in practice.
Didn't say "unique", said he was big influence, and was credited (long
before I got there) with large input into successful management in
Japanese industry, perhaps most notably auto (and I have no idea and
no time to check right now, trying to get out for the second loop),
possibly (probably) much more widespread.
Post by Tom Kunich
It would probably make a whole lot more sense to you if you understood the
real differences between the US and Japan. Instead you believe that it is
the mean American industrialist who is the cause of it all. Fact is that it
happens to be a mutual problem between management and the unions.
Oh shit shit shit, as usual. But at least management took a hit from
you there.

I didn't say the "mean industrialist" anything. I said bad management.
And that, with the writing on the wall.
Post by Tom Kunich
When I worked for BART I was continuously harassed and threatened with
firing. Not from the management - from the Union. For one thing - you had to
stand in line with your timecard and couldn't punch in until the hour on the
dot. Understand - you couldn't punch in ONE minute early. Then 15 seconds
after the hour the punch time turned from blue to red. If you had red three
times in a row you were fired even though you were 16 seconds after the
starting time AND you were in a line with 20 other men. That was entirely
union.
And there was not an uproar at the next meeting? The bad managers
either straightened right out, or tossed out on their stupid ears?
I've done the punchcard thing, TK, similar stuff, with a union in
place. I broke the rules bigtime for a week or so (not intentional),
bad punches all over the place. The boss talked to me (a little red in
the face, kinda gruff, he was in a little hot water too <g>), I got
the protocols straightened out (one punch during lunch sometime????
Well, OK!) and life went on. Back to "good managers" on that one, the
way it should have been for the Battered Bastards of Bart, don't you
agree?

The punchcard thing was just another symbol of oppression to the
workers, like when they used to fudge our production figures to take
bonuses away from us. While sitting at a desk in plain view of the
work force.
Post by Tom Kunich
In most of Japan the "unions" are owned and operated by the companies! So
perhaps you ought to understand the massive differences between here and
there before you start telling us how Deming would improve things here.
Hell, TK, I didn't even read all 14 points yet. May I go back? (file,
new tab...)

OK, I'm back. Here's a good 'un, number 8 on the list (Wiki):

<Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the
company. (See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis")>

That would be pretty much the direct opposite of what I've seen to be
the new Golden Standard of USA employment: "at will" or by whatever
name, where THE COMPANY can fire you at any instant for no reason,
with your having no recourse, and perhaps not even being allowed to
retrieve personal effects from your desk or whatever-- "Call
Security!".

The bullies, since that's what they are, justify this (at least
sometimes, that I've heard) in various ways-- "That gives the worker
more rights", for example. Bullshit. It's a fear mechanism, meant to
cow employees into a subservient state of mind. It's part of a malaise
that took hold early in the Bush-Reagan years, which I refer to
sometimes as The War On People. Incl. "downsizing" (if you had one
job, now you have none, or you do two or three jobs now-- "working you
60, paying you 30").

Kind of ironic, the most forceful justification given for We Must Let
Management Run Things The Way They Want (incl. multimillion guaranteed
compensation packages, and golden parachutes not dependent on
performance or fulfillment of "hire-on" contracts) was: The Japanese
Are Coming!!! They're going to bury us!!! (Kruschev reference-
linkage?) And IMS, "they" [Japanese financial forces] were indeed
pulling some nasty "money stuff" aimed at undercutting US financial
wellness, but then they went poof pretty quickly and The War On People
continued because... because... People are the only thing left to
fight?

Another irony is, this kind of stuff could be seen as a drive toward
making the wild and freedom-lovin' cowboys (and cowgirls!) in the USA
work force more closely resemble the peasant class ("most everybody")
in Japan, who have as one of their few, if not only, inalienable
rights the freedom to cower at the feet of the Samurai. Speaking
figuratively, of course.

I guess we should look at how it was, and is, that Toyota and Honda
could construct new plants in areas perhaps not noted for a
specifically experienced work force here in the USA (Louisville Ky?
Baseball bats?) and succeed in making superior products using
heretofore untrained (at least, those sorts were the ones openly
sought after when the Mitsubishi plant opened in Normal, Ill.) USA
labor. I'd guess "good management" with Deming's gladly acknowledged
influence seen factoring strongly into the mix. --D-y
Tom Sherman
2008-08-22 04:06:41 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Kunich
Unions accomplished some marvelous things.
This could be a first!
Like a broken analog clock being right twice per day?
Post by d***@mac.com
...
Post by Tom Kunich
The unions kept pounding companies even after it was plain that such tactics
would destroy the companies that were the fortune for all. Have you EVER
been to the rust belt?
I lived in Bloomington-Normal (Illinois) from '64 until '84. Close
enough?
At least it was not Downs.
Post by d***@mac.com
...
Post by Tom Kunich
In most of Japan the "unions" are owned and operated by the companies! So
perhaps you ought to understand the massive differences between here and
there before you start telling us how Deming would improve things here.
Hell, TK, I didn't even read all 14 points yet. May I go back? (file,
new tab...)
<Drive out fear, so that everyone may work effectively for the
company. (See Ch. 3 of "Out of the Crisis")>
butbutbut, creating fear brings joy to the lives of petty tyrant
managers. (In the past, I worked at several such places).
Post by d***@mac.com
That would be pretty much the direct opposite of what I've seen to be
the new Golden Standard of USA employment: "at will" or by whatever
name, where THE COMPANY can fire you at any instant for no reason,
with your having no recourse, and perhaps not even being allowed to
retrieve personal effects from your desk or whatever-- "Call
Security!".
Indeed, that has been the practice at several places I have worked. The
supervisor shows up with two or three security goons and tells the (soon
to be former) employee to start walking towards the door, and they will
pack and ship any personal items. Well, at least they let people get
their coats in the winter time (probably to avoid lawsuits from
frostbitten former employees).
Post by d***@mac.com
The bullies, since that's what they are, justify this (at least
sometimes, that I've heard) in various ways-- "That gives the worker
more rights", for example. Bullshit. It's a fear mechanism, meant to
cow employees into a subservient state of mind. It's part of a malaise
that took hold early in the Bush-Reagan years, which I refer to
sometimes as The War On People. Incl. "downsizing" (if you had one
job, now you have none, or you do two or three jobs now-- "working you
60, paying you 30").
Kind of ironic, the most forceful justification given for We Must Let
Management Run Things The Way They Want (incl. multimillion guaranteed
compensation packages, and golden parachutes not dependent on
performance or fulfillment of "hire-on" contracts) was: The Japanese
Are Coming!!! They're going to bury us!!! (Kruschev reference-
linkage?) And IMS, "they" [Japanese financial forces] were indeed
pulling some nasty "money stuff" aimed at undercutting US financial
wellness, but then they went poof pretty quickly and The War On People
continued because... because... People are the only thing left to
fight?
Has the lust for power ever known bounds in the history of human society?
Post by d***@mac.com
Another irony is, this kind of stuff could be seen as a drive toward
making the wild and freedom-lovin' cowboys (and cowgirls!) in the USA
work force more closely resemble the peasant class ("most everybody")
in Japan, who have as one of their few, if not only, inalienable
rights the freedom to cower at the feet of the Samurai. Speaking
figuratively, of course.
Well, the Samurai have been gone for well over a century, unless you are
referring to a small Jeep like vehicle made by Suzuki in the 1980's. ;)
Post by d***@mac.com
I guess we should look at how it was, and is, that Toyota and Honda
could construct new plants in areas perhaps not noted for a
specifically experienced work force here in the USA (Louisville Ky?
Baseball bats?) and succeed in making superior products using
heretofore untrained (at least, those sorts were the ones openly
sought after when the Mitsubishi plant opened in Normal, Ill.) USA
labor. I'd guess "good management" with Deming's gladly acknowledged
influence seen factoring strongly into the mix.
A driveway connecting to the Mitsubishi Motorway has a sign reading
"Pearl Harbor Drive".

Who needs good management when you have irrational jingoism?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
d***@mac.com
2008-08-22 13:14:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by d***@mac.com
This could be a first!
Like a broken analog clock being right twice per day?
Well, no, this was a giant crack in the armor. Nothing less. But, of
course, the Bondo Factor will prevail!
Post by Tom Sherman
At least it was not Downs.
Well, Downs has one strong advantage. Not *enough* distance, but some!
Post by Tom Sherman
butbutbut, creating fear brings joy to the lives of petty tyrant
managers. (In the past, I worked at several such places).
Myself. "That's how I know". That, and, of course, working in places
that don't operate on fear, so a guy can tell the difference <g>.
Post by Tom Sherman
Indeed, that has been the practice at several places I have worked. The
supervisor shows up with two or three security goons and tells the (soon
to be former) employee to start walking towards the door, and they will
pack and ship any personal items. Well, at least they let people get
their coats in the winter time (probably to avoid lawsuits from
frostbitten former employees).
Which also gives them the opportunity to paw your personal stuff. Not
many tricks are missed.
Post by Tom Sherman
Has the lust for power ever known bounds in the history of human society?
"People standing up to The Power" (or just being decent, which usually
works very well).
Post by Tom Sherman
A driveway connecting to the Mitsubishi Motorway has a sign reading
"Pearl Harbor Drive".
Who needs good management when you have irrational jingoism?
The "psychological environment" in that plant, most notably extreme
sexual harassment of female employees, was no surprise to me when I
read of it, having previously removed to a different state. Not the
only game in town, but strangely enough (back to OT theme) the factory
I worked in (GE GPC, Bloomington), where this kind of redneck, no-
class behavior was held strongly in check, had a strong UNION. "Go
figure". --D-y
Tom Sherman
2008-08-23 10:54:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by d***@mac.com
This could be a first!
Like a broken analog clock being right twice per day?
Well, no, this was a giant crack in the armor. Nothing less. But, of
course, the Bondo Factor will prevail!
Or the ternary logic. ;)
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Sherman
At least it was not Downs.
Well, Downs has one strong advantage. Not *enough* distance, but some!
Downs - the "armpit of McLean County". Of course, there is also Shirley
with no services.
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Sherman
butbutbut, creating fear brings joy to the lives of petty tyrant
managers. (In the past, I worked at several such places).
Myself. "That's how I know". That, and, of course, working in places
that don't operate on fear, so a guy can tell the difference <g>.
Those jobs must be rare indeed.
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Sherman
Indeed, that has been the practice at several places I have worked. The
supervisor shows up with two or three security goons and tells the (soon
to be former) employee to start walking towards the door, and they will
pack and ship any personal items. Well, at least they let people get
their coats in the winter time (probably to avoid lawsuits from
frostbitten former employees).
Which also gives them the opportunity to paw your personal stuff. Not
many tricks are missed.
A good reason not to have anything important at your workplace (unless
you are the proprietor).
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Sherman
Has the lust for power ever known bounds in the history of human society?
"People standing up to The Power" (or just being decent, which usually
works very well).
Well, that is no way to succeed in business.
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Sherman
A driveway connecting to the Mitsubishi Motorway has a sign reading
"Pearl Harbor Drive".
Who needs good management when you have irrational jingoism?
The "psychological environment" in that plant, most notably extreme
sexual harassment of female employees, was no surprise to me when I
read of it, having previously removed to a different state.
All I ever did at the Mitsubishi (former Diamond-Star) factory was test
concrete and soil on the expansion project, and never dealt with any
employees but the gate guards.

I wonder if the plant formerly being half-owned by Chrysler had an
effect on the culture? Of course, from what was reported locally, the
local plant management did little or nothing to stop (or even
participated in) the harassment, until the lawsuits and government
investigations turned the heat up on them.
Post by d***@mac.com
Not the
only game in town, but strangely enough (back to OT theme) the factory
I worked in (GE GPC, Bloomington), where this kind of redneck, no-
class behavior was held strongly in check, had a strong UNION. "Go
figure".
Well, the local union leadership likely has a strong effect on this.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-20 20:55:29 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Judging from your posting you never bothered to read Deming's book. One of
his statements was something along the lines that "competition is evil" and
that everyone should work together for the betterment of business.
I used to think competition was universally good. But then I attended a
seminar put on by a very successful (and rich) businessman (who was
previously a professor of management at Cornell). He said the best
business has a product or service that costs little to produce, is worth
a lot of money to its customers, and has no competitors. Suddenly, I
realized how evil competition can be. ;-)

But seriously, competition *isn't* great for business owners, and can
sometimes be the pits for employees. It transfers money from the
business owner and the employees to the customers' pockets. And
businesses in which everyone works together for the betterment of the
business *are* good for employees and the business owner. Hell, they're
often even good for the customers!

Deming was quite a bright guy, wasn't he. ;-)

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-21 00:08:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
But seriously, competition *isn't* great for business owners, and can
sometimes be the pits for employees. It transfers money from the
business owner and the employees to the customers' pockets. And
businesses in which everyone works together for the betterment of the
business *are* good for employees and the business owner. Hell, they're
often even good for the customers!...
In practice, the client wants a lower fee, but still insists on the same
level of service that should demand a higher fee. The employees resolve
the situation by providing the same work for a lower salary.

Now if we could only establish such a market in the health care
industry, medical costs in the US could be slashed almost in half.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Tom Sherman
2008-08-20 23:58:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
...
Well, McCain (the Original Maverick) (gag me, code word for "Original
Management") has pulled ahead in at least some polls, so at least
something is right with the world, take comfort there!...
I have only heard a few McSame campaign commercials, but those have been
so offensive and misleading that there is no way in hell I would vote
for the man. Can not the Republicans pull a switch at their convention
and nominate Ron Paul so at least a real conservative would have a
chance at winning?

I am no fan of Bob Barr (mainly over the silly Clinton impeachment (no
fan of Clinton either)), but if he is being honest in his campaign would
be much better for the country than McSame.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
SLAVE of THE STATE
2008-08-21 00:41:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Can not the Republicans pull a switch at their convention
and nominate Ron Paul so at least a real conservative would have a
chance at winning?
Ron Paul is a libertarian (roughly "classic liberal"). He is not a
"conservative." He is republican because of political realities,
since "liberals" are no longer liberal -- they are simply socialists.
(That is why there is now the weird conjunction "classic liberal"
instead of simply liberal.)

I'll probably end up writing him in because there is no one on the
national scene any better; in fact, no one is even close.

But of course, Ron Paul does *not* have a chance at winning, as he is
not nearly statist enough for contemporary amerikan politics.
Tom Sherman
2008-08-21 02:01:50 UTC
Permalink
Post by SLAVE of THE STATE
Post by Tom Sherman
Can not the Republicans pull a switch at their convention
and nominate Ron Paul so at least a real conservative would have a
chance at winning?
Ron Paul is a libertarian (roughly "classic liberal"). He is not a
"conservative." He is republican because of political realities,
since "liberals" are no longer liberal -- they are simply socialists.
(That is why there is now the weird conjunction "classic liberal"
instead of simply liberal.)
Mr. White has a non-standard definition of a socialist.

Ron Paul is the type of conservative that Eisenhower and Goldwater era
Republicans would recognize, rather than the current crop of borrow and
spend, intrusive big government, foreign adventurer, cronyist Republicans.
Post by SLAVE of THE STATE
I'll probably end up writing him in because there is no one on the
national scene any better; in fact, no one is even close.
Better than voting Libertarian/Bob Barr?
Post by SLAVE of THE STATE
But of course, Ron Paul does *not* have a chance at winning, as he is
not nearly statist enough for contemporary amerikan politics.
I may end up writing in Gene Daniels.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Donald Munro
2008-08-21 08:05:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
I may end up writing in Gene Daniels.
I'd go (or come) for Paris Hilton.
Bill C
2008-08-21 11:26:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Tom Sherman
Can not the Republicans pull a switch at their convention
and nominate Ron Paul so at least a real conservative would have a
chance at winning?
Ron Paul is a libertarian (roughly "classic liberal").  He is not a
"conservative."  He is republican because of political realities,
since "liberals" are no longer liberal -- they are simply socialists.
(That is why there is now the weird conjunction "classic liberal"
instead of simply liberal.)
Mr. White has a non-standard definition of a socialist.
Ron Paul is the type of conservative that Eisenhower and Goldwater era
Republicans would recognize, rather than the current crop of borrow and
spend, intrusive big government, foreign adventurer, cronyist Republicans.
I'll probably end up writing him in because there is no one on the
national scene any better; in fact, no one is even close.
Better than voting Libertarian/Bob Barr?
But of course, Ron Paul does *not* have a chance at winning, as he is
not nearly statist enough for contemporary amerikan politics.
I may end up writing in Gene Daniels.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Now I know you are totally out of your mind and out of touch. Bob Barr
is a vicious theocratic, bigotted, nutcase. He's about as far as you
could get from being a "libertarian" and you want people to vote for
him???
Ron Paul is another hate filled nutcase. Maybe that's why you like
them.
Bill C
Ryan Cousineau
2008-08-19 03:27:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
Did they export Ivy League MBAs to England so they could trash the
British motor industry?
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Are the Toyota plants unionized yet?

<http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/10/bloomberg/10sxuaw.php>

As much as I enjoy a good union-bashing (or for that matter,
MBA-bashing), I'm pretty sure that the Japanese ascendance was more a
matter of Japanese companies getting better at building cars rather than
the American companies getting worse (or rather, the American companies
probably also got better, only not fast enough).

The modern situation is such that both American and Japanese
manufacturers are getting good, high-quality cars out of their US
factories (and for that matter, out of their factories around the world,
more or less).

One of the most important factors in the bottom line of the current US
makers is their liabilities (pension and medical) to their retired
workers. They took on those liabilities freely, and should not be
relieved of the obligation, but it is a legacy liability that
tremendously limits their ability to turn a profit or escape their debt
load.

GM's debt load made the news in 2005 when it went above $300 billion;
they apparently owe about $5 billion/year in pension liabilities.

Fun infographic:

<http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/info-UAW0708-30.html?pr
intVersion=true>

Daniel Gross on GM:

<http://www.slate.com/id/2174601/>

Gross underestimates GM's global importance by describing its US
operations as accounting for about 6% of global auto sales. GM has
substantial overseas presence in almost every market except Japan (and
even there it once owned half of Isuzu and some portion of Subaru, not
to mention relatively minor joint ventures with Toyota, mostly under the
NUMMI banner).
--
Ryan Cousineau ***@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
Tom Sherman
2008-08-19 03:40:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
Did they export Ivy League MBAs to England so they could trash the
British motor industry?
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
Are the Toyota plants unionized yet?
<http://www.iht.com/articles/2007/06/10/bloomberg/10sxuaw.php>
As much as I enjoy a good union-bashing (or for that matter,
MBA-bashing), I'm pretty sure that the Japanese ascendance was more a
matter of Japanese companies getting better at building cars rather than
the American companies getting worse (or rather, the American companies
probably also got better, only not fast enough)....
Well, US cars did get worse from the early 1970's to the early 1980's
due to emission controls, which the Japanese handled better (with the
added advantage of greater fuel efficiency naturally producing fewer
emissions). Chrysler also cheapened their cars in a short-sighted
attempt to improve profitability.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Tom Kunich
2008-08-19 03:56:24 UTC
Permalink
Have any of you actually been in a car plant before?

American car company managers cannot talk to workers the way that Japanese
car company managers do. In the US companies the workers would be on a
picket line in a minute for a slightly off-color remark about one worker's
inactivity. In the Japanese plant you do what they tell you to do or you're
out of there.

In France all the workers have all sorts of protections. In a French company
in the USA you discover that they are some of the foulest managers possible
(not that there aren't great exceptions but in general) who wouldn't give an
American worker any of the rights that the laws of France give every French
worker unless forced to do so by law. And in case you missed it - there
ain't many laws concerning workers here.
Barry Harmon
2008-08-19 14:07:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
In France all the workers have all sorts of protections. In a French
company in the USA you discover that they are some of the foulest
managers possible (not that there aren't great exceptions but in
general) who wouldn't give an American worker any of the rights that
the laws of France give every French worker unless forced to do so by
law. And in case you missed it - there ain't many laws concerning
workers here.
Can you say "Renault Dauphine?" :-)

Barry Harmon
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-19 18:02:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Kunich
In France all the workers have all sorts of protections. In a French
company in the USA you discover that they are some of the foulest
managers possible (not that there aren't great exceptions but in
general) who wouldn't give an American worker any of the rights that
the laws of France give every French worker unless forced to do so by
law. And in case you missed it - there ain't many laws concerning
workers here.
Can you say "Renault Dauphine?" :-)
Not without laughing.

Java
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-19 18:00:46 UTC
Permalink
In article <g8d8ac$6d9$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.

"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-20 01:08:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Must not have worked in Detroit. Many of the rest must have spent most
of their time figuring out how to export jobs from the US, and or how to
get the rich out of paying their taxes.
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.
But most of the engineers in the US operations are USians.
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas long
before the Ivy League MBAs?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-20 02:27:02 UTC
Permalink
In article <g8fqqt$g1s$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Must not have worked in Detroit. Many of the rest must have spent most
of their time figuring out how to export jobs from the US, and or how to
get the rich out of paying their taxes.
Yet more ignorant, demonizing smears.
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.
But most of the engineers in the US operations are USians.
And there are far fewer of them in comparison to Japanese auto
manufacturers.
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas long
before the Ivy League MBAs?
You really have a problem with stereotyping, don't you.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-20 04:15:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Must not have worked in Detroit. Many of the rest must have spent most
of their time figuring out how to export jobs from the US, and or how to
get the rich out of paying their taxes.
Yet more ignorant, demonizing smears.
Does the truth hurt that much?
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.
But most of the engineers in the US operations are USians.
And there are far fewer of them in comparison to Japanese auto
manufacturers.
And?
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas long
before the Ivy League MBAs?
You really have a problem with stereotyping, don't you.
You really do have a problem with historical facts, don't you?

Why not answer the question?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-20 16:53:02 UTC
Permalink
In article <g8g5oh$85k$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Must not have worked in Detroit. Many of the rest must have spent most
of their time figuring out how to export jobs from the US, and or how to
get the rich out of paying their taxes.
Yet more ignorant, demonizing smears.
Does the truth hurt that much?
"You can't handle the truth".
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.
But most of the engineers in the US operations are USians.
And there are far fewer of them in comparison to Japanese auto
manufacturers.
And?
Shall I draw the picture for you? More engineers employed in the
industry means more engineering built into the production process and
the products, which in turn means better, less expensive products and
faster new product development.
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas long
before the Ivy League MBAs?
You really have a problem with stereotyping, don't you.
You really do have a problem with historical facts, don't you?
Why not answer the question?
Pick up a copy of David Halberstam's "The Reckoning". A great read and
an excellent explanation of how the US auto industry squandered its lead
over the Japanese. It will entertain you, reinforce some of your ideas,
educate you, and give you more ideas about what needs to change.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-21 00:12:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Must not have worked in Detroit. Many of the rest must have spent most
of their time figuring out how to export jobs from the US, and or how to
get the rich out of paying their taxes.
Yet more ignorant, demonizing smears.
Does the truth hurt that much?
"You can't handle the truth".
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.
But most of the engineers in the US operations are USians.
And there are far fewer of them in comparison to Japanese auto
manufacturers.
And?
Shall I draw the picture for you? More engineers employed in the
industry means more engineering built into the production process and
the products, which in turn means better, less expensive products and
faster new product development.
I probably should have been more specific and written "But most of the
engineers in the US operations [of Japanese based manufacturers] are
USians.", to avoid what appears to have been an unintentional
misinterpretation.
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas long
before the Ivy League MBAs?
You really have a problem with stereotyping, don't you.
You really do have a problem with historical facts, don't you?
Why not answer the question?
Pick up a copy of David Halberstam's "The Reckoning". A great read and
an excellent explanation of how the US auto industry squandered its lead
over the Japanese. It will entertain you, reinforce some of your ideas,
educate you, and give you more ideas about what needs to change.
Was not the US auto industry that squandered its lead over the Japanese
full of Ivy League MBAs?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-21 02:51:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Was not the US auto industry that squandered its lead over the
Japanese full of Ivy League MBAs?
In the mold of Bob "I see the light at the end of the tunnel" McNamara.

Can you say Haaavad Baker Skoller? (AKA Haavad BS)

Barry Harmon
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-21 16:22:46 UTC
Permalink
In article <g8ibu3$rij$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Must not have worked in Detroit. Many of the rest must have spent most
of their time figuring out how to export jobs from the US, and or how to
get the rich out of paying their taxes.
Yet more ignorant, demonizing smears.
Does the truth hurt that much?
"You can't handle the truth".
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.
But most of the engineers in the US operations are USians.
And there are far fewer of them in comparison to Japanese auto
manufacturers.
And?
Shall I draw the picture for you? More engineers employed in the
industry means more engineering built into the production process and
the products, which in turn means better, less expensive products and
faster new product development.
I probably should have been more specific and written "But most of the
engineers in the US operations [of Japanese based manufacturers] are
USians.", to avoid what appears to have been an unintentional
misinterpretation.
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas long
before the Ivy League MBAs?
You really have a problem with stereotyping, don't you.
You really do have a problem with historical facts, don't you?
Why not answer the question?
Pick up a copy of David Halberstam's "The Reckoning". A great read and
an excellent explanation of how the US auto industry squandered its lead
over the Japanese. It will entertain you, reinforce some of your ideas,
educate you, and give you more ideas about what needs to change.
Was not the US auto industry that squandered its lead over the Japanese
full of Ivy League MBAs?
Are you asking, or are you saying it was? (You should also ask who the
senior managers are in today's Japanese auto companies operating in
North America.)

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-22 03:51:38 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Bill C
Post by d***@mac.com
However, the first time I rode a Cyclone up a hill (I can tell you
where and close approx. when <g>) was a minor revelation. Much
superior shifting, no lever slipping. Campy should have (opinion)
dropped everything and copied while continuing their rebuild-ability
feature if they intended to remain the unquestioned "better stuff". --
D-y
Agreed D-y. It's a lot like the boat that sailed on the Brit
motorcycle industry. They saw the Honda CB750 coming, and then it
showed up and blew what was left of them away. They were dinosaurs,
and pretty complacent, and paid the price. The only thing that saved
HD too was the government bailout, and all those, now,
"undesireables" (their word), that kept buying the shit when it was
antique designs, built on worn out equipment, with shitty quality
control, for a premium price.
These things happen when you let Ivy League MBAs and accountants run the
company, instead of people who know and care about the product.
Of course, there are also Ivy League MBAs and accountants who know and
care about the product. But that wouldn't fit your biased world view,
now would it.
Those are not the ones who led the US from best in the world
manufacturing to third rate manufacturing?
There are plenty of smart Ivy League MBAs and accountants who understand
the businesses in which they work and really care about the health and
success of those businesses.
Must not have worked in Detroit. Many of the rest must have spent most
of their time figuring out how to export jobs from the US, and or how to
get the rich out of paying their taxes.
Yet more ignorant, demonizing smears.
Does the truth hurt that much?
"You can't handle the truth".
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Why can the Japanese build better cars in US factories with US workers
than US companies in US factories with US workers?
The Japanese have a very different culture than the USA. They graduate
and employ far more engineers per capita than the USA. The good fit
between their culture and their quality assurance practices have a lot
to do with their success. They got their start on quality management
from an American who graduated from an Ivy League university.
But most of the engineers in the US operations are USians.
And there are far fewer of them in comparison to Japanese auto
manufacturers.
And?
Shall I draw the picture for you? More engineers employed in the
industry means more engineering built into the production process and
the products, which in turn means better, less expensive products and
faster new product development.
I probably should have been more specific and written "But most of the
engineers in the US operations [of Japanese based manufacturers] are
USians.", to avoid what appears to have been an unintentional
misinterpretation.
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
"W. Edwards Deming -- U.S. statistician, educator, and advocate of
quality-control methods in industrial production. He received his Ph.D.
in mathematical physics from Yale University, and he subsequently taught
at New York University for 46 years. From the 1930s he employed
statistical analysis to achieve better industrial quality control. In
1950 he was invited to Japan to teach executives and engineers. His
ideas, which centred on tallying product defects, analyzing and
addressing their causes, and recording the effects of the changes on
subsequent quality, were eagerly adopted there and eventually helped
Japanese products dominate the market in much of the world. In 1951
Japan instituted the Deming Prize, awarded to corporations that win a
rigorous quality control competition. Deming's ideas were taken up by
U.S. corporations in the 1980s, particularly under the rubric of Total
Quality Management."
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas long
before the Ivy League MBAs?
You really have a problem with stereotyping, don't you.
You really do have a problem with historical facts, don't you?
Why not answer the question?
Pick up a copy of David Halberstam's "The Reckoning". A great read and
an excellent explanation of how the US auto industry squandered its lead
over the Japanese. It will entertain you, reinforce some of your ideas,
educate you, and give you more ideas about what needs to change.
Was not the US auto industry that squandered its lead over the Japanese
full of Ivy League MBAs?
Are you asking, or are you saying it was? (You should also ask who the
senior managers are in today's Japanese auto companies operating in
North America.)
I have heard that the US operations of Japanese companies retain many of
the better features of the home company operations.

To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-22 14:37:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
There were several industries using statistical quality methods long before
they hit the mainstream. When I worked making small arms ammunition in the
mid 1960s, we had procedures in place for quality control. These
procedures had been in place for decades and were thoroughly integrated
into every aspect of the manufacturing process.

When I went to business school in 1968, I learned the statistical and
mathematical basis of these methods. See Schlaifer, "Probability and
Statistics for Business Decisions," for a good introduction to Bayesian
decision making.

Barry Harmon
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-26 22:19:47 UTC
Permalink
In article <g8ld3s$r27$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you might
learn how things work or what actually happened.

I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for you.
Why not take advantage of it?

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-27 00:50:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you might
learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for you.
Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-27 03:11:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you
might learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for
you. Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Short answer: The Ivy League MBAs weren't down and dirty in the trenches
with the production people and the engineers. That's only a slight
overstatement.

Barry Harmon
Tom Sherman
2008-08-27 04:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you
might learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for
you. Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Short answer: The Ivy League MBAs weren't down and dirty in the trenches
with the production people and the engineers. That's only a slight
overstatement.
Yes, they are too good for us.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-27 13:45:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on
Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you
might learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for
you. Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Short answer: The Ivy League MBAs weren't down and dirty in the
trenches with the production people and the engineers. That's only a
slight overstatement.
Yes, they are too good for us.
The other, slightly snotty, answer is that there were no cases on
Statistical Quality Control. Since there were no cases, the subject didn't
exist. <G>

Barry Harmon
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-27 18:51:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <g928cj$13a$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you might
learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for you.
Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Good response! Try again.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-28 00:57:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you might
learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for you.
Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Good response! Try again.
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-28 23:04:40 UTC
Permalink
In article <g94t27$nbp$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you might
learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for you.
Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Good response! Try again.
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
This may help to shed light on two points: why Deming was ignored in the
USA between WWII and the 1980s; and a little more information on what
leadership is and why it's both important and highly valuable. Read it
-- who knows, you may even learn something worthwhile?

http://www.leadershipalliance.com/deming.htm

Java
Tom Kunich
2008-08-30 04:49:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
This may help to shed light on two points: why Deming was ignored in the
USA between WWII and the 1980s
Tell me - do you really think that Deming would have been remembered by
anyone if he hadn't convinced some Japanese businesses to use his method?

The pretense that Deming was God On Earth is a bit funny coming from people
claiming that US businessmen are Devils Incarnate.
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-30 19:46:22 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
This may help to shed light on two points: why Deming was ignored in the
USA between WWII and the 1980s
Tell me - do you really think that Deming would have been remembered by
anyone if he hadn't convinced some Japanese businesses to use his method?
No, I don't think he would be well-known at all without the Japanese.
I'm sure there are many unknown geniuses whose ideas were never adopted.
Post by Tom Kunich
The pretense that Deming was God On Earth is a bit funny coming from people
claiming that US businessmen are Devils Incarnate.
And the next thing you know, they're studying Buddhism, practicing chi
gong, and dating oriental women. It helps them to reconcile the "Deming
good, US businessmen bad" formula. ;-)

Java
d***@mac.com
2008-08-30 20:48:00 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
The pretense that Deming was God On Earth is a bit funny coming from people
claiming that US businessmen are Devils Incarnate.
Enron.

And the people who covered for them-- accountants and lawyers.

There's a start.

P.S. They're just working for the Devil, so to speak. --D-y
Tom Kunich
2008-08-30 23:09:23 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
Post by Tom Kunich
The pretense that Deming was God On Earth is a bit funny coming from people
claiming that US businessmen are Devils Incarnate.
Enron.
So in your mind Enron represents American business. I should have guessed.
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-31 00:39:04 UTC
Permalink
In article <d987c67e-6ad3-472a-a8e2-
Post by d***@mac.com
The pretense that Deming was God On Earth is a bit funny coming from peop=
le
claiming that US businessmen are Devils Incarnate.
Enron.
And the people who covered for them-- accountants and lawyers.
The basic idea that auditors should also be selling consulting services
to their audit clients puts them in a conflict of interest. Anyone with
any sense knew this before the proverbial hit the fan at Enron, but the
big accounting firms chose to ignore it. Even the head of the SEC a few
years earlier, Arthur Levitt Jr, had called for the separation of
auditing and consulting arms of accounting companies.

We know there were several people at and near the top at Enron who were
complicit in outright fraud, unethical practices, and bad management.
But there were also executives near the top of Enron who knew what was
happening and tried to stop it. In addition, Enron's own internal audit
committee thought their internal auditor (consulting firm Arthur
Andersen) was doing something fishy.

Enron's auditors, Arthur Andersen, knew full well that they were
compromised, as they had survived two similar debacles in the previous ~
5 years. The managing partner in charge of Arthur Andersen's audits of
Enron's accounts also knew it. Some members of his team should have
been charged with fraud, because there is hard evidence to support such
a charge. Arthur Andersen, went under as a result, as well they should
have.
Post by d***@mac.com
There's a start.
P.S. They're just working for the Devil, so to speak. --D-y
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 01:20:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
Do you have supporting documentation for that, or is it just an opinion?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-31 02:44:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
Do you have supporting documentation for that, or is it just an opinion?
Didn't realize that Philadelphia lawyers posted here.

Welcome.

barry Hamron
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 03:23:26 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
Do you have supporting documentation for that, or is it just an opinion?
Didn't realize that Philadelphia lawyers posted here.
Welcome.
If Java Man wants other people to post citations for every statement, he
should do the same.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-31 17:00:52 UTC
Permalink
In article <g9d2rh$8g7$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
Do you have supporting documentation for that, or is it just an opinion?
Didn't realize that Philadelphia lawyers posted here.
Welcome.
If Java Man wants other people to post citations for every statement, he
should do the same.
I do for people who reciprocate.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 19:16:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
Do you have supporting documentation for that, or is it just an opinion?
Didn't realize that Philadelphia lawyers posted here.
Welcome.
If Java Man wants other people to post citations for every statement, he
should do the same.
I do for people who reciprocate.
I am not writing a dissertation for Java Man's deliberate obtuseness.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-31 17:00:21 UTC
Permalink
In article <g9crk9$vhh$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
Do you have supporting documentation for that, or is it just an opinion?
I'll start providing supporting documentation for my positions just
after you clear up the backlog of unanswered requests for yours.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 19:15:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
...
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
Do you have supporting documentation for that, or is it just an opinion?
I'll start providing supporting documentation for my positions just
after you clear up the backlog of unanswered requests for yours.
Java Man has been deliberately obtuse in not understanding common
concepts and language.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Tom Kunich
2008-08-31 02:57:12 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
We know there were several people at and near the top at Enron who were
complicit in outright fraud, unethical practices, and bad management.
But there were also executives near the top of Enron who knew what was
happening and tried to stop it. In addition, Enron's own internal audit
committee thought their internal auditor (consulting firm Arthur
Andersen) was doing something fishy.
What's interesting is the idea that it COULD have worked out and the
auditors were worried that if they interfered they might spoil a huge
profit. So let's remember that it COULD have worked out and everyone would
be none-the-less knowledgeable.
d***@mac.com
2008-08-31 03:17:55 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 30, 7:39 pm, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
(Citation?)

Minus all the big names mentioned in waves of "restatings" in the wake
(pun intended) of Enron, of course.

What's funny? Kunich claimed to have lost his shirt-- or one of them--
via being taken advantage of via "mis-stated" financial health of
companies he invested in. But, of course, Mr. Authoritarian Mindset
still sticks up for The System.

Enron not "represent big business?" Damn. Let's not forget that the
tentacles of Enron were active at the highest levels of government and
finance in the land. It was an exemplar of the phony "market-driven
system". Works good when you're tight with the White House, no doubt
there!

Crooks. Call them what they are. Cayman Islands money launderers,
phony offshore corps. meant to avoid tax responsibilites, all down the
line.

Sure, there are honest ones. Whoops, wasn't the vaunted Vanguard, as
it turned out-- scratch another one!

Dirty underwear everywhere you look, and the shame of it all is, there
is so incredibly much money to be made "honestly".
--D-y
Tom Kunich
2008-08-31 03:58:40 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
What's funny? Kunich claimed to have lost his shirt
Perhaps you'd like to quote me?
Post by d***@mac.com
Enron not "represent big business?"
Crooks are crooks. Pretending that you can recognize them is pretty
indicative of a dope.

The problem is that you can't tell a crook from a good man with bad luck and
that's why most crooks escape. But then dopey would like to pretend
otherwise. Or else he'd like to punish most of the people with bad luck.
d***@mac.com
2008-08-31 22:14:20 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by d***@mac.com
What's funny? Kunich claimed to have lost his shirt
Perhaps you'd like to quote me?
Quote yourself.
Post by Tom Kunich
The problem is that you can't tell a crook from a good man with bad luck and
that's why most crooks escape. But then dopey would like to pretend
otherwise. Or else he'd like to punish most of the people with bad luck.
BAD LUCK!?!?

BAD LUCK the lying, conniving, scheming double-dealing cheating house
of cards collapsed? And the Press dug into the dunghole?

"Most crooks escape" (???) because there are lots of crook judges and
crook cops and crook DA's. --D-y
Bill C
2008-08-31 22:20:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by d***@mac.com
BAD LUCK!?!?
BAD LUCK the lying, conniving, scheming double-dealing cheating house
of cards collapsed? And the Press dug into the dunghole?
"Most crooks escape" (???) because there are lots of crook judges and
crook cops and crook DA's.  --D-y
Then there's the built in incentive to go for it on a massive scale.
If you look at a lot of the prosecutions, over decades, the penalty
seems to be being fined some small percentage of the money stolen, and
a short trip to a minimum security, white collar only, resort prison,
most of the time under a year, and that's for those who get "slammed".
Pretty damned nice net profit usually, and 99% of the scum seem to
cut deals so that the actual number of people really penalized is a
vanishing number.
Who says crime doesn't pay?
Bill C
Tom Kunich
2008-08-31 22:48:59 UTC
Permalink
Post by Bill C
Then there's the built in incentive to go for it on a massive scale.
If you look at a lot of the prosecutions, over decades, the penalty
seems to be being fined some small percentage of the money stolen, and
a short trip to a minimum security, white collar only, resort prison,
most of the time under a year, and that's for those who get "slammed".
Pretty damned nice net profit usually, and 99% of the scum seem to
cut deals so that the actual number of people really penalized is a
vanishing number.
Who says crime doesn't pay?
Come on Bill. Just try to make a list of CEO's and the like who have gotten
away with such stuff. You'll discover rapidly that they are a tiny
percentage. Most of the time they get the book thrown at them.

Now certainly we need to tighten the standards so that no one can escape
justice for that sort of thing. But what do you do with someone that
embezzles company funds and spends it all? You can't get it back and they're
not going to ever have any position to be able to earn anything again. Jail
time? Of course but what does it accomplish and who is paying for THAT?
Bill C
2008-08-31 23:05:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Now certainly we need to tighten the standards so that no one can escape
justice for that sort of thing. But what do you do with someone that
embezzles company funds and spends it all? You can't get it back and they're
not going to ever have any position to be able to earn anything again. Jail
time? Of course but what does it accomplish and who is paying for THAT?
Do you believe deterrence has a place in the judicial system? Who is
paying to lock up pot smokers, prostitutes, and other victimless
"criminals"?
You bet I want their asses in the same prison, for a multiple, based
on the proportion of the theft, as the guy who hits a convenience
store, or other non-violent offenses gets.
I don't see them getting anything even close to what Joe Blow gets,
if much of anything. I'll agree with you that the vast majority of
people running businesses play within the rules, or at least the grey
area, and that goes for some of the assholes tooting the "social
justice".
We've got a local handyman/contractor who was smart enough to figure
out that playing the ultra left political card here is a great thing
for business. The problem is he routinely tries to screw people who
work for him out of benefits, block their workmans comp, or
unemployment. Is flat out fraudulent in his work. Has repeatedly lost
in court but still paints himself as the victim. Comapring one of his
contracts to the actual materials used, and work performed is an
education in fiction. He's FAR from unique, especially during the
housing boom when everyone got on the bandwagon.
The point is honesty and value are pretty damned rare where profit is
concerned. Everyone has an angle, and I"m with D-y that 99% get away
with it.
Bill C

Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 04:12:27 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 30, 7:39 pm, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
(Citation?)
gnaw [1], we are just supposed to believe it.
Minus all the big names mentioned in waves of "restatings" in the wake
(pun intended) of Enron, of course.
What's funny? Kunich claimed to have lost his shirt-- or one of them--
via being taken advantage of via "mis-stated" financial health of
companies he invested in. But, of course, Mr. Authoritarian Mindset
still sticks up for The System.
Ternary logic?
Enron not "represent big business?" Damn. Let's not forget that the
tentacles of Enron were active at the highest levels of government and
finance in the land. It was an exemplar of the phony "market-driven
system". Works good when you're tight with the White House, no doubt
there!
Yeah, it helps to have financed the political career of the President
Select.
Crooks. Call them what they are. Cayman Islands money launderers,
phony offshore corps. meant to avoid tax responsibilites, all down the
line.
butbutbut [2], this is just the market at work, and the market is NEVER
wrong. ;)
Sure, there are honest ones. Whoops, wasn't the vaunted Vanguard, as
it turned out-- scratch another one!
Dirty underwear everywhere you look, and the shame of it all is, there
is so incredibly much money to be made "honestly".
But that would not be "smart dealing" (per Mr. Clemens).

[1] A gdanielsism.
[2] ibid.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"America is like a casino. Almost everyone loses, some make it big,
and the owners always win." - Anon.
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-31 17:05:13 UTC
Permalink
In article <g9d5ne$l6c$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by d***@mac.com
Crooks. Call them what they are. Cayman Islands money launderers,
phony offshore corps. meant to avoid tax responsibilites, all down the
line.
butbutbut [2], this is just the market at work, and the market is NEVER
wrong. ;)
Who said that? Where?

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 19:17:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by d***@mac.com
Crooks. Call them what they are. Cayman Islands money launderers,
phony offshore corps. meant to avoid tax responsibilites, all down the
line.
butbutbut [2], this is just the market at work, and the market is NEVER
wrong. ;)
Who said that? Where?
If Java Man lived in the US and paid attention, he would know.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-31 16:59:31 UTC
Permalink
In article <52d45d96-aefa-4cb5-9700-
On Aug 30, 7:39=A0pm, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
(Citation?)
I can't find a citation for "50,000 planes landed safely at US airports
today", either. I guess it never happened.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 19:19:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
In article <52d45d96-aefa-4cb5-9700-
On Aug 30, 7:39=A0pm, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
(Citation?)
I can't find a citation for "50,000 planes landed safely at US airports
today", either. I guess it never happened.
Not good enough. Even well known facts need citations and dissertation
length explanations here on RBT.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
d***@mac.com
2008-08-31 22:05:24 UTC
Permalink
On Aug 31, 11:59 am, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
In article <52d45d96-aefa-4cb5-9700-
On Aug 30, 7:39=A0pm, Espressopithecus (Java Man)
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
For every Enron there are thousands of well-run businesses and ethical
business people, accountants, and internal auditors in the USA.
(Citation?)
I can't find a citation for "50,000 planes landed safely at US airports
today", either.  I guess it never happened.
OK. Just for you, here: <g> <g> <g> <g> <g> <g> <g>

There's a few, for free. Sprinkle into places that might need "irony
warnings" as needed.

That probably didn't rub your fur the right way, I understand. --D-y
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 01:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you might
learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference for you.
Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Good response! Try again.
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
This may help to shed light on two points: why Deming was ignored in the
USA between WWII and the 1980s; and a little more information on what
leadership is and why it's both important and highly valuable. Read it
-- who knows, you may even learn something worthwhile?
http://www.leadershipalliance.com/deming.htm
That does not answer the question, why were the Japanese smart enough to
pick up on Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?

Some points from the article are key:

"4. MINIMIZE TOTAL COST: SINGLE SUPPLIERS. End the practice of awarding
business on the basis of price tag alone. Instead, minimize total cost.
Move toward a single supplier for any one item on a long-term
relationship of loyalty and trust." - This of course violates the macho
bragging about how hard a bargain was driven.

"8. DRIVE OUT FEAR. Drive out fear, so that everyone may work
effectively for the company. Fear is not the best motivator. It destroys
innovation, creativity and trust." - What good is it being on top if you
can not be "King of the Realm" and inspire fear in your subjects? No
wonder USian management was resistant to Deming's ideas.

"12. REMOVE BARRIERS THAT ROB PRIDE. Remove barriers that rob people of
their right to pride of workmanship. Supervisors should be responsible
for quality, not numbers. Eliminate annual reviews and merit ratings." -
Workers should be grateful that they are allowed to have a job.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"America is like a casino. Almost everyone loses, some make it big,
and the owners always win." - Anon.
Barry Harmon
2008-08-31 03:04:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on
Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you
might learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference
for you. Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on
Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Good response! Try again.
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
This may help to shed light on two points: why Deming was ignored in
the USA between WWII and the 1980s; and a little more information on
what leadership is and why it's both important and highly valuable.
Read it -- who knows, you may even learn something worthwhile?
http://www.leadershipalliance.com/deming.htm
That does not answer the question, why were the Japanese smart enough
to pick up on Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
"4. MINIMIZE TOTAL COST: SINGLE SUPPLIERS. End the practice of
awarding business on the basis of price tag alone. Instead, minimize
total cost. Move toward a single supplier for any one item on a
long-term relationship of loyalty and trust." - This of course
violates the macho bragging about how hard a bargain was driven.
It certainly helps when your zaibatsu is selling to my zaibatsu and we
share common ownership with with each other and with our banks. Of
course, this whole edifice crumbled in the 1990s, the lost decade and a
half.
Post by Tom Sherman
"8. DRIVE OUT FEAR. Drive out fear, so that everyone may work
effectively for the company. Fear is not the best motivator. It
destroys innovation, creativity and trust." - What good is it being on
top if you can not be "King of the Realm" and inspire fear in your
subjects? No wonder USian management was resistant to Deming's ideas.
As I remember it, the Japanese spend a lot of time bowing to the big
boys. The salarymen had a job for life -- of wait, that isn't the case
anymore.
Post by Tom Sherman
"12. REMOVE BARRIERS THAT ROB PRIDE. Remove barriers that rob people
of their right to pride of workmanship. Supervisors should be
responsible for quality, not numbers. Eliminate annual reviews and
merit ratings." - Workers should be grateful that they are allowed to
have a job.
Sure, let's all work at the same job for life. Unless we're graduates
of Tokyo U, then we can rise to middle management or a little higher.
But never fear, we can work 12 hours a day six days a week and the
company will make sure we can get blind, staggering drunk in a Karaoke
bar cum geisha house three nights a week on the company chit.

A large part of Japan Inc was the guiding/controlling/commanding hand of
the government. For instance, in autos, the government passed rules
that were so restictive that driving a car over two or three years old
was a huge hassle. Japan was a huge exporter of two and three year old
cars in the 1970s and later. In fact, The USSR and later Russia was a
major market for them.

This whole discussion about Deming is a little incomplete and one-sided.
America had quality in quite a few industries that surpassed anything
Japan could do and we were equal to them in many more. Cars happens to
be an example where we weren't but the deal there was the 1968 laws here
that mandated government control over auto design, and neither side was
prepared to get into a collaborative arrangement, let alone to have
cooperation between the big three here.

Barry Harmon
Tom Kunich
2008-08-31 04:01:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Harmon
This whole discussion about Deming is a little incomplete and one-sided.
America had quality in quite a few industries that surpassed anything
Japan could do and we were equal to them in many more.
Shush Barry. People here have read a book that pretend that that's all there
is to it.

Deming is God and that's all there is.
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 04:14:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Barry Harmon
This whole discussion about Deming is a little incomplete and one-sided.
America had quality in quite a few industries that surpassed anything
Japan could do and we were equal to them in many more.
Shush Barry. People here have read a book that pretend that that's all
there is to it.
Deming is God and that's all there is.
Gee, and I thought that Kunich was God - after all, both are omniscient. ;)
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Tom Kunich
2008-08-31 22:17:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Barry Harmon
This whole discussion about Deming is a little incomplete and one-sided.
America had quality in quite a few industries that surpassed anything
Japan could do and we were equal to them in many more.
Shush Barry. People here have read a book that pretend that that's all
there is to it.
Deming is God and that's all there is.
Just to make this clear - Deming's model works OK in some societies. But
pretending that it is an all encompassing management technique is silly.
Let's recall the interview with people leaving the Chevy Assembly Plant in
Fremont, CA, on their last day. One of the workers was laughing and said,
"whenever I got mad at the company I would drop a handful of nuts and bolts
into a door. This would cause a rattle that they could never find or get rid
of. I guess I shouldn't have done that now."

Any guesses whether the Japanese who took over the plant re-hired that guy?
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 04:07:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on
Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Your misapprehensions compound as you go. If you stopped making
premature judgments about things you don't fully understand, you
might learn how things work or what actually happened.
I've already suggested an excellent and entertaining reference
for you. Why not take advantage of it?
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on
Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
Good response! Try again.
To repeat, why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's
ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
This may help to shed light on two points: why Deming was ignored in
the USA between WWII and the 1980s; and a little more information on
what leadership is and why it's both important and highly valuable.
Read it -- who knows, you may even learn something worthwhile?
http://www.leadershipalliance.com/deming.htm
That does not answer the question, why were the Japanese smart enough
to pick up on Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
"4. MINIMIZE TOTAL COST: SINGLE SUPPLIERS. End the practice of
awarding business on the basis of price tag alone. Instead, minimize
total cost. Move toward a single supplier for any one item on a
long-term relationship of loyalty and trust." - This of course
violates the macho bragging about how hard a bargain was driven.
It certainly helps when your zaibatsu is selling to my zaibatsu and we
share common ownership with with each other and with our banks. Of
course, this whole edifice crumbled in the 1990s, the lost decade and a
half.
Post by Tom Sherman
"8. DRIVE OUT FEAR. Drive out fear, so that everyone may work
effectively for the company. Fear is not the best motivator. It
destroys innovation, creativity and trust." - What good is it being on
top if you can not be "King of the Realm" and inspire fear in your
subjects? No wonder USian management was resistant to Deming's ideas.
As I remember it, the Japanese spend a lot of time bowing to the big
boys. The salarymen had a job for life -- of wait, that isn't the case
anymore.
Or, let us fire workers just to boost our egos and make the others fear
for their jobs. Creating fear is worth the loss in productivity.
Post by Barry Harmon
Post by Tom Sherman
"12. REMOVE BARRIERS THAT ROB PRIDE. Remove barriers that rob people
of their right to pride of workmanship. Supervisors should be
responsible for quality, not numbers. Eliminate annual reviews and
merit ratings." - Workers should be grateful that they are allowed to
have a job.
Sure, let's all work at the same job for life. Unless we're graduates
of Tokyo U, then we can rise to middle management or a little higher.
But never fear, we can work 12 hours a day six days a week and the
company will make sure we can get blind, staggering drunk in a Karaoke
bar cum geisha house three nights a week on the company chit.
Actually, the Japanese now work fewer hours per year than USians.
Post by Barry Harmon
A large part of Japan Inc was the guiding/controlling/commanding hand of
the government. For instance, in autos, the government passed rules
that were so restictive that driving a car over two or three years old
was a huge hassle. Japan was a huge exporter of two and three year old
cars in the 1970s and later. In fact, The USSR and later Russia was a
major market for them.
This whole discussion about Deming is a little incomplete and one-sided.
America had quality in quite a few industries that surpassed anything
Japan could do and we were equal to them in many more.
But hey, lets de-industrialize the country since we can use near slave
labor in China.
Post by Barry Harmon
Cars happens to
be an example where we weren't but the deal there was the 1968 laws here
that mandated government control over auto design, and neither side was
prepared to get into a collaborative arrangement, let alone to have
cooperation between the big three here.
The lack of collaboration explains NUMMI:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NUMMI>?
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
"America is like a casino. Almost everyone loses, some make it big,
and the owners always win." - Anon.
Espressopithecus (Java Man)
2008-08-31 17:02:22 UTC
Permalink
In article <g9csmq$9ph$***@registered.motzarella.org>, sunsetss0003
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
That does not answer the question, why were the Japanese smart enough to
pick up on Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
The questions rests on a false premise. No point answering it.

Java
Tom Sherman
2008-08-31 19:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Espressopithecus (Java Man)
@REMOVETHISyahoo.com says...
Post by Tom Sherman
That does not answer the question, why were the Japanese smart enough to
pick up on Deming's ideas long before the Ivy League MBAs?
The questions rests on a false premise. No point answering it.
Please justify your contention that the question contains a false premise.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
Barry Harmon
2008-08-20 04:02:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Sherman
So why were the Japanese smart enough to pick up on Deming's ideas
long before the Ivy League MBAs?
I can't speak about the rest of the world, but the ammunition industry has
used statistical quality control for decades to certify both the components
and the finished product. All government ammunition (at least small arms
ammunition) is (or was when I was making it) subject to 100% inspection for
all dimensions and weight.

For components during manufacture, take a sample. If they are all in spec,
the lot passes.
If there is a defect, take another sample. If that sample passes, the lot
passes. If the retest flunks, the lot is sent for individual testing.

The limits are determined by Bayesian methods.

Neat, eh?

DuPont developed a methodology called preventive maintenance in the 1940s.
You keep track of the mean time between failure for a machine. When you
reach a percentage of the time, you take the machine out of service and
overhaul it. This allows the company to schedule overhauls, which means
that all the parts are on hand, the machine shop time is scheduled and the
production is routed to other machines.

Barry Harmon
Clive George
2008-08-16 02:19:27 UTC
Permalink
<***@gmail.com> wrote in message news:674b0eaf-632e-46b4-852d-***@k37g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...

<some argument>

Could there be a USian vs Danish thing going on here? Danes are notoriously
keen utility bike riders, ie their attitude towards bikes is rather
different to the USian one to start with.

I suspect the leisure-oriented market that the US is has a rather higher
brand-awareness for this sort of thing.

Of course it could just be a phs123 vs rest of the world thing too... (he
says, having put the NG line straight again).

cheers,
clive
Ryan Cousineau
2008-08-15 17:55:00 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by p***@gmail.com
[cross-post to r.b.r. removed]
[snip: bad netiqutte to x-post]
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
Not at all. Mr. Sundquist is far more qualified to discuss
pursuiting than anybody else in rec.bicycles.racing.
However, rec.bicycles.*, like bike racing, is a spectator
sport as well as a recreational activity. Obree, Obree's
position, the UCI, and telling Sundquist about the track
are all very much on topic for rbr. And it's an rbr tradition
(ever since our John Hansen told our Shaun Wallace to
try riding a fixed gear). Welcome.
Well, it doesn't matter whether this thread also is on topic for
another separate newsgroup. In my experience cross-posting is a bad
idea, especially when someone suddenly decides to cross-post in the
middle of a thread. The newcomers usually miss the entire context.
At the risk of spoiling Ben's fun, I'm going to explain the joke:

Carl Sundquist not only rode the Obree-designed "Moser" bike with the
Mantis setup, he has also won multiple national pursuit (basically, the
same discipline in which Obree had his greatest success, and absolutely
germane to a discussion of Obree's bikes) titles, and has palmares from
the Worlds and Olympics, too.

The previous incident referred to (Hansen/Wallace) involved a naive
gentleman suggesting to a different world-class trackie that he didn't
know anything about fixed-gear bicycles.

Sorry, I'm a bit of a spoilsport,
--
Ryan Cousineau ***@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
Tom Kunich
2008-08-15 19:21:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Carl Sundquist not only rode the Obree-designed "Moser" bike with the
Mantis setup, he has also won multiple national pursuit (basically, the
same discipline in which Obree had his greatest success, and absolutely
germane to a discussion of Obree's bikes) titles, and has palmares from
the Worlds and Olympics, too.
The previous incident referred to (Hansen/Wallace) involved a naive
gentleman suggesting to a different world-class trackie that he didn't
know anything about fixed-gear bicycles.
Sorry, I'm a bit of a spoilsport,
Carl is one of the few REAL(tm) racers left on this board retired or not. We
used to have a good group of highly skilled and interesting people posting
here until the dumb-jerks such as the Albright School of HalfBright started
attacking each and every one of them until they simply gave up and left the
group.

It has always been my feeling that we need to pay more attention to those
who know a bit about what they're speaking. What's more, we need to remain a
bit aloof from the occasional screeching that comes from otherwise good
posters when they're having personal problems that lead to them trying to
take it out on the group (John Forrest Tomlinson for instance who is a well
qualified rider and used to be exceptionally good poster but seems have been
in a snit recently).

In any case, this is a bicycle racing group and when there's no racing news
a bit of side discussions are fine. But we should keep the subject on
bicycle racing whenever possible. And yes I know that I'm a chief instigator
of off-subject conversations and I'm trying to improve.
Ryan Cousineau
2008-08-15 22:45:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tom Kunich
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Carl Sundquist not only rode the Obree-designed "Moser" bike with the
Mantis setup, he has also won multiple national pursuit (basically, the
same discipline in which Obree had his greatest success, and absolutely
germane to a discussion of Obree's bikes) titles, and has palmares from
the Worlds and Olympics, too.
The previous incident referred to (Hansen/Wallace) involved a naive
gentleman suggesting to a different world-class trackie that he didn't
know anything about fixed-gear bicycles.
Sorry, I'm a bit of a spoilsport,
Carl is one of the few REAL(tm) racers left on this board retired or not. We
used to have a good group of highly skilled and interesting people posting
here until the dumb-jerks such as the Albright School of HalfBright started
attacking each and every one of them until they simply gave up and left the
group.
It's a nice thought, Tom, but it's funnier to abuse them.
Post by Tom Kunich
In any case, this is a bicycle racing group and when there's no racing news
a bit of side discussions are fine. But we should keep the subject on
bicycle racing whenever possible. And yes I know that I'm a chief instigator
of off-subject conversations and I'm trying to improve.


"...I'm in a transitional period..."
--
Ryan Cousineau ***@gmail.com http://www.wiredcola.com/
"In other newsgroups, they killfile trolls."
"In rec.bicycles.racing, we coach them."
b***@mambo.ucolick.org
2008-08-16 01:54:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Carl Sundquist not only rode the Obree-designed "Moser" bike with the
Mantis setup, he has also won multiple national pursuit (basically, the
same discipline in which Obree had his greatest success, and absolutely
germane to a discussion of Obree's bikes) titles, and has palmares from
the Worlds and Olympics, too.
The previous incident referred to (Hansen/Wallace) involved a naive
gentleman suggesting to a different world-class trackie that he didn't
know anything about fixed-gear bicycles.
Sorry, I'm a bit of a spoilsport,
It all would have worked if it wasn't for
you meddling Canadians!

Ben
Amit Ghosh
2008-08-20 03:29:28 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ryan Cousineau
Carl Sundquist not only rode the Obree-designed "Moser" bike with the
Mantis setup, he has also won multiple national pursuit (basically, the
same discipline in which Obree had his greatest success, and absolutely
germane to a discussion of Obree's bikes) titles, and has palmares from
the Worlds and Olympics, too.
dumbass,

obree did to race the original obree design on the road., but with
mixed success. i think he started the 1993 GP eddy merckx (which was
boardman's first pro race) and crashed numerous times. there were a
few companies that came out with copycat bikes within months of
obree's record, but obviously it never caught on.
Tom Sherman
2008-08-16 00:31:46 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
...
Well, it doesn't matter whether this thread also is on topic for
another separate newsgroup. In my experience cross-posting is a bad
idea, especially when someone suddenly decides to cross-post in the
middle of a thread. The newcomers usually miss the entire context.
...
butbutbut [1], cross-posting leads to better flame wars.

[1] A gdanielsism.
--
Tom Sherman - Holstein-Friesland Bovinia
“Mary had a little lamb / And when she saw it sicken /
She shipped it off to Packingtown / And now it’s labeled chicken.”
b***@mambo.ucolick.org
2008-08-19 02:10:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
First of all, I suspect a larger fraction of those viewers know
the names Campagnolo and Shimano, even if they have no
idea about Dura-Ace.  Car manufacturers sponsor car racing
to sell family sedans and unmodded pickup trucks, not to
sell racecars.
Tell me about the thriving market of Campagnolo equipped city-bikes
and commuter bikes. I really don't think there is much of a market for
Campagnolo outside the road racing bike market. Anyway when people buy
cars they tend to go after the name of the car manufacturer and the
car name, not what the engine is called or what brand of tires that
are on. Same with bicycles, the majority of people want to buy a
Centurion or Nishiki (known brand names in Denmark that has nothing to
do with the original manufacturers) or a Trek bicycle, not a bicycle
with Shimano components on.
I think your post illustrates the problems with cross-posting. You
seem to think that I somehow dispute whether it is a good idea for
bike component manufacturers to sponsor pro races, but I don't. It is
a very good idea for Campagnolo to sponsor pro teams.
The original discussion stemmed from the postulate that bicycle fans
eagerly read the newspapers or watched races to follow so called
technical innovations, my point is that they don't, and that the
average cycling fan doesn't even know what Dura-Ace is,
No really, I did read the entire thread in r.b.tech before
crossposting it into r.b.r. It's not that I didn't understand
your arguments, it's that they weren't clear, or didn't
make sense to me. Earlier in the thread, you seemed to be
arguing that the UCI had a valid reason for banning Obree's
unusual positions, because his freaky positions would
alienate cycling fans who didn't care for such stuff:
"The point is that the sports fans, the fans that shows
up or turn on the TV to watch the races etc, don't care
at all for some geeky new position."

I didn't think that made sense either, and I can't reconcile
it with the idea that the fans care about handlebars at the
UCI-reg level of detail, but don't know what Dura-Ace is.
The fans have accepted weirdo TT bikes and even the goofy
small-front-wheel funny bikes of the 1990s before.
And there is little danger that riders will try the more
outlandish positions on the open roads, because they
are suited only to the controlled environment of a track.

By the way, when fancy-shmancy TT bikes are
introduced, like the US Olympic "Superbike", there
are lots of newspaper articles about them, so it appears
some segment of the fan population likes reading
about that stuff. You can see a similar effect in the
public chatter about the new LZR swimsuits at the current
Olympics. Much of it is ginned up by the PR machine
of bike and swimsuit makers, but the papers publish it
because they think someone wants to read it.

Ben
Michael Press
2008-08-15 17:12:55 UTC
Permalink
In article
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
If you're going to argue with Sundquist about
pursuiting, please have the decency to crosspost
it to rec.bicycles.racing.
Why, I consider it bad usenet etiquette to cross-post to newsgroups
one doesn't read.
Besides Mr. Sundquist is man enough to defend his ideas and attack
mine without any outside help if that is what you are suggesting.
You know now that it is on topic for rbr.
Afraid of airing you ideas in a forum where experts read and post?
--
Michael Press
Bill C
2008-08-16 01:05:18 UTC
Permalink
Post by Michael Press
In article
Post by p***@gmail.com
Post by b***@mambo.ucolick.org
If you're going to argue with Sundquist about
pursuiting, please have the decency to crosspost
it to rec.bicycles.racing.
Why, I consider it bad usenet etiquette to cross-post to newsgroups
one doesn't read.
Besides Mr. Sundquist is man enough to defend his ideas and attack
mine without any outside help if that is what you are suggesting.
You know now that it is on topic for rbr.
Afraid of airing you ideas in a forum where experts read and post?
--
Michael Press
We at least want to watch the show since, Carl, along wth Andy Coggan
are two of the few people who don't seem to post BS, for whatever
reason, and actually not only know what they are talking about, but
have the credentials to back it up quite nicely, but hey if you think
you have a better handle on astronomy annd astrophysics than Carl
Sagan, let us in for that one too.
Thanks
Bill C
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